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  • CNG kits EPA certificate

    Hi All,

    I am very glad to join this forum. I am a supplier of CNG kits in CHINA. In China we also have CNG or LPG cars to use now. My product can be installed in most of cars in the market. While now I wonder if I can take steps in USA market. I know first I should get EPA certificate. Now I want to know if I can get certificate with my Kits or I should install it in the car, then for EPA certificate ?

    Richard Yu
    {e-mail removed to prevent spam}
    Last edited by John Mitton; 10-21-2008, 10:19 AM.

  • #2
    Re: CNG kits EPA certificate

    Richard I would contact the EPA first and find out what the process is. I would assume that they will make arrangements with you to install one or more kits on vehicles you select for certification purpose. EPA certification is engine family and vehicle specific.

    If you just start installing kits on vehicles you will probably get in a whole lot of trouble.

    It goes without saying that you need to follow NFPA-52 for installation guidelines. Check NFPA 52 section 4.3 for component approval requirements. Make sure that the fuel cylinders you install in the vehicles meet DOT-FMVSS 304 or ANSI/NGV-2 standards (NFPA 52-4.4.4).

    Good luck

    Larrycng

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: CNG kits EPA certificate

      Basically, don't waste your time with the U.S. market... If you can sell them in virtually every other country in the world, it's not going to be worth your trouble to try and get it certified for sale in the U.S.

      To get one kit, for one year make model and engine, and to only hold certifications for a single year, will probably cost you as much or more, than it has cost you to get all the other certifications your kits have gotten to date...

      Oh, and then you'll have to do it all over again next year.

      The U.S. market is a waste of time and $$$$

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: CNG kits EPA certificate

        it looks very difficult.
        Originally posted by larrycng View Post
        Richard I would contact the EPA first and find out what the process is. I would assume that they will make arrangements with you to install one or more kits on vehicles you select for certification purpose. EPA certification is engine family and vehicle specific.

        If you just start installing kits on vehicles you will probably get in a whole lot of trouble.

        It goes without saying that you need to follow NFPA-52 for installation guidelines. Check NFPA 52 section 4.3 for component approval requirements. Make sure that the fuel cylinders you install in the vehicles meet DOT-FMVSS 304 or ANSI/NGV-2 standards (NFPA 52-4.4.4).

        Good luck

        Larrycng

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: CNG kits EPA certificate

          Originally posted by larrycng View Post
          Richard I would contact the EPA first and find out what the process is. I would assume that they will make arrangements with you to install one or more kits on vehicles you select for certification purpose. EPA certification is engine family and vehicle specific.

          If you just start installing kits on vehicles you will probably get in a whole lot of trouble.

          It goes without saying that you need to follow NFPA-52 for installation guidelines. Check NFPA 52 section 4.3 for component approval requirements. Make sure that the fuel cylinders you install in the vehicles meet DOT-FMVSS 304 or ANSI/NGV-2 standards (NFPA 52-4.4.4).

          Good luck

          Larrycng
          Originally posted by wrenchmonkey View Post
          Basically, don't waste your time with the U.S. market... If you can sell them in virtually every other country in the world, it's not going to be worth your trouble to try and get it certified for sale in the U.S.

          To get one kit, for one year make model and engine, and to only hold certifications for a single year, will probably cost you as much or more, than it has cost you to get all the other certifications your kits have gotten to date...

          Oh, and then you'll have to do it all over again next year.

          The U.S. market is a waste of time and $$$$
          That means US government should make the certificate as easy as possible because US use most of oil in the world, why not save some time & $ for Automotive industry ...

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: CNG kits EPA certificate

            unfortunately everyone is right the US market would be a waste of your time and money, we would love to have another competing kit on the market to drive prices down, but the truth is the government makes it so difficult that it becomes a money losing proposition in most cases. Yes we should be the biggest users of CNG since we are the biggest consumers of oil. The only people that want us to use oil and nothing else are the oil companies, the oil companies contributed big dollars to most politicians that have been elected and hense pull their strings. The government does not push CNG usage infact they make it down right difficult and that's the way they want it, it's all by design. Mark my words I am saying this now, even with the current rules and $$$$ requirements by EPA if to many conversions get certs and end up on the road EPA will change the rules and make it more difficult, they have already done it once before.

            We are screaming from the top of a mountain (where the air is clean) but no one can hear us. We have a megaphone but EPA stole the batteries out of it.
            sigpichttp://WWW.CNGMOTORS.COM
            SAVE TIME. SAVE MONEY. SAVE THE ENVIRONMENT.

            2003 Hummer H2 bi-fuel
            2000 GMC Yukon XL bi-fuel
            1999 International 4700 dual-fuel
            2007 Chevy Avalanche bi-fuel

            FMQ2-36 Fuelmaker w/ 24 GGE cascade

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: CNG kits EPA certificate

              Welcome to America Richard,if our government was as big 150 years ago as it is today; Henry Ford would not have been able to produce what he did I'm sure he was not EPA certified. Our railroad's would not have crisscrossed the nation some little insect might have been endangered.Andrew Carnegie would not have become the steel giant, I know he was guilty of something.China would still be part of Japan and western Europe would be Germany.During WWII there were too many lives put at risk for such mass production of military equipment,too much smoke from all the guns going bang bang.Too many hours required for the worker's.The noise level's were too high,and all of the factories exceeded all reasonable levels of known pollutant's and yet we are all still here.Oh yea I forgot to mention all that coal and oil burning from those BIG steam locomotives,not EPA spec,not to mention all those BIG smoking war ships we had.Shame shame on us,this is a happy place. Question for the Forum .Weren't we producing more pollutant's between the 20's and 70's then we are today? Richard I wish you well in your business pursuit

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: CNG kits EPA certificate

                Originally posted by Cleanstar View Post
                That means US government should make the certificate as easy as possible because US use most of oil in the world, why not save some time & $ for Automotive industry ...
                Yeah, don't ask us. We can't figure it out either...

                Too many politicians are taking bribes from the wrong people, so they pass laws that favor the people who pay...

                We just come up with fancy words to make it sound less corrupt.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: CNG kits EPA certificate

                  Yea, we have problem with the system.

                  Let's not discourage those who want to work within the system to get a new product on the market. Let help them and work with them and not discourage them.

                  If you guys want CNG conversion kits that work and provide clean exhaust step up and help!

                  Richard it not easy, and the system is difficult. If think you have a good product - go for it, but follow the rules. If you do it, these guys will be buying your product, because they have discouraged everyone else from trying. Oh yea and they won't have to worry about passing a SMOG test or looking over their sholder for the EPA.

                  I'm not real well versed on the procedure, but maybe I can answer some questions in private message

                  Larrycng




                  Larrycng

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: CNG kits EPA certificate

                    Originally posted by larrycng View Post
                    Yea, we have problem with the system.

                    Let's not discourage those who want to work within the system to get a new product on the market. Let help them and work with them and not discourage them.
                    The system is simply unworkable. I'm just trying to help the guy out. I could let him waste HOURS of time, trying to figure out what all exactly it will take to get it done. Or I can give it to him straight. He's got the entire rest of the world to work within reasonably. Like it or not, the U.S.A. is a waste of time.

                    If you guys want CNG conversion kits that work and provide clean exhaust step up and help!
                    It's not a matter of whether or not good kits are out there. It's that it's so prohibitive to try and get them approved, that it's just virtually impossible. No amount of "help" or encouragement we can give him will change that. If he wants to sell his kits in this market, he's going to have to do it WITHOUT the stamp of approval from all of the various bureaucracies. Since this forum doesn't allow such discussion, the only option is to tell him not to bother.

                    Richard it not easy, and the system is difficult. If think you have a good product - go for it, but follow the rules. If you do it, these guys will be buying your product, because they have discouraged everyone else from trying. Oh yea and they won't have to worry about passing a SMOG test or looking over their sholder for the EPA.

                    I'm not real well versed on the procedure, but maybe I can answer some questions in private message

                    Larrycng
                    Richard,
                    You can waste your time on this if you like, but it WILL flop in the end, and you will regret ever wasting your time. Been there, done that, got the T-Shirt.

                    Focus your efforts on the rest of the world, and you will be rewarded.

                    You've been warned.

                    That said, if you decide to go through with it. I wish you all the best of luck in your endeavors. Prove me wrong, and I'll buy you a beer.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: CNG kits EPA certificate

                      Thanks all my new friends reply to me, I appreciated your words.

                      In Australia, they use LPG kits for car, the government will pay AUD2000 for one car, so many people is wanting in a long line to install LPG kits in the cars. I wonder if I get EPA, do consumer can get some rebate from state government ?

                      Richard Yu
                      [email protected]

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: CNG kits EPA certificate

                        Originally posted by Cleanstar View Post
                        Thanks all my new friends reply to me, I appreciated your words.

                        In Australia, they use LPG kits for car, the government will pay AUD2000 for one car, so many people is wanting in a long line to install LPG kits in the cars. I wonder if I get EPA, do consumer can get some rebate from state government ?

                        Richard Yu
                        [email protected]

                        There are no "rebates" per se. But some states do have a program, where if your vehicle qualifies, they will give you a certain dollar amount of your income that you are allowed to keep, that they would otherwise take from your earnings.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: CNG kits EPA certificate

                          If I may;

                          This post got very depressing very quickly. Lets cut to the chase but keep it positive.

                          1) ANY fuel system, whether it be OEM or aftermarket, MUST meet emission regulations posted by the EPA, and in California, its the CARB. Why do they have to meet these regulations? If these regs were not in force, anyone would dump parts on a system and there would be no control over the emission outcome. Why are the regs in force? US is indeed the most oil using country in the world, but the US is also the forefront in emissions controls. Many countries are 10 to 20 years behind the US in emission standards, and pollution is bad there too.

                          2) Put the paid off politicians on hold for a minute, there are probably a few of them, but to say equivocally that they control everything is a disgrace to the population of the US. There are a few dirty rats, but probably no more or no less than anywhere else in the world.

                          3) ANYONE who wants to submit a fuel system for certification has to follow the same rules the OEM's have to, including testing and certification. The alt fuel crowd has been given multiple occasions to clean up their act and been slack in doing so, I can cite each and every one of them, and what was done to stall their efforts for a variety of reasons.

                          Its time that the playing field be leveled, we get clean fuel systems that really do work, reduced emissions, and happy customers (Arizona history as an example). For those in this forum who think this is a new venture, it has repeated itself now for what I guess is the 3rd or 4th time in almost 38 years.

                          Franz

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: CNG kits EPA certificate

                            Originally posted by Franz View Post
                            If I may;

                            This post got very depressing very quickly. Lets cut to the chase but keep it positive.

                            1) ANY fuel system, whether it be OEM or aftermarket, MUST meet emission regulations posted by the EPA, and in California, its the CARB. Why do they have to meet these regulations? If these regs were not in force, anyone would dump parts on a system and there would be no control over the emission outcome. Why are the regs in force? US is indeed the most oil using country in the world, but the US is also the forefront in emissions controls. Many countries are 10 to 20 years behind the US in emission standards, and pollution is bad there too.

                            2) Put the paid off politicians on hold for a minute, there are probably a few of them, but to say equivocally that they control everything is a disgrace to the population of the US. There are a few dirty rats, but probably no more or no less than anywhere else in the world.

                            3) ANYONE who wants to submit a fuel system for certification has to follow the same rules the OEM's have to, including testing and certification. The alt fuel crowd has been given multiple occasions to clean up their act and been slack in doing so, I can cite each and every one of them, and what was done to stall their efforts for a variety of reasons.

                            Its time that the playing field be leveled, we get clean fuel systems that really do work, reduced emissions, and happy customers (Arizona history as an example). For those in this forum who think this is a new venture, it has repeated itself now for what I guess is the 3rd or 4th time in almost 38 years.

                            Franz
                            That's the point. It's cyclical, and it ALWAYS fails. Paid-off politicians or no, the people who make the rules regarding this are not even elected. It's just arbitrary rulings, that whoever happens to be the "Honorable chairman" gets to make.

                            It's got little-to-nothing to do with the democratic system we all pretend to practice.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: CNG kits EPA certificate

                              Are we trying to promote clean and safe installations or just dump product on the market? It is hard to legislate morality, and when opportunities pop up, the snake oil salesmen come out of the woodwork and dump products and poor installs. It is not a training issue, its down to the public's demand for a product and a vehicle that works properly, and a repair technician that when they open the hood they do not fall over laughing, and importantly, a company that will be around when a warranty issue arises, and believe, me, they will.

                              Again, we do not differ entirely on this opinion, but ultimately, we have to require that the installers follow certain standards, dont you agree?

                              We expect our food to be clean and prepared properly, that our houses meet certain building standards, that traffic laws are adhered to, and our children meet education requirements. These are expectations we have come to acknowledge as being transparent, but there are standards and laws behind them as well. Can you imagine otherwise?

                              Franz

                              Comment

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