Electric cars vs. NGVs

[jetboatjohnny]

John M, sorry to post off topic but I have to rant, call me (you got my number) if I am off base LOL.
CH-4, I am glad you are optomistic about CNG.
The fact is that hybrids here in the USA are outselling NGVs by astronomic numbers. I dont see that changing soon with 2$ gasoline (more$ here in CA). The BEVs will become a reality very soon, Nisson will probably get the first one to market and "Better place" (do a search thay are going to be big) has already got a lot of contracts and recharging stations going in all over the world. Electric cars may come of age passing by CNG along the way. They say CNG is the path to hydrogen, yeah well that is a big pipe dream for sure, all this hype for refuelining stations, what about our CNG fueling stations? who cares about us?
I really try to promote CNG, I was showing off my car today at the local Honda dealer, as that was a place to park my car at a big car show at the Chevy dealer across the street (they dont sell GXs). The (Honda) salesmen had no clue about the GX.
If NGVs dont take off here in the USA, at least I will continue to have a reliable local source and NEVER have to wait for fuel!
I still want a VRA INSIDE my garage,
Oh yeah I forgot to tell everyone, I got laid off from my job of 9 years yesterday, I got 20 years AutoCad and 3-D Solid modeling (CADD) experinece,
OK my rant is over!

[Dave Fox]

Re: FuelMaker bankruptcy

John M, sorry to post off topic but I have to rant, call me (you got my number) if I am off base LOL.
CH-4, I am glad you are optomistic about CNG.
The fact is that hybrids here in the USA are outselling NGVs by astronomic numbers. I dont see that changing soon with 2$ gasoline (more$ here in CA). The BEVs will become a reality very soon, Nisson will probably get the first one to market and "Better place" (do a search thay are going to be big) has already got a lot of contracts and recharging stations going in all over the world. Electric cars may come of age passing by CNG along the way. They say CNG is the path to hydrogen, yeah well that is a big pipe dream for sure, all this hype for refuelining stations, what about our CNG fueling stations? who cares about us?
I really try to promote CNG, I was showing off my car today at the local Honda dealer, as that was a place to park my car at a big car show at the Chevy dealer across the street (they dont sell GXs). The (Honda) salesmen had no clue about the GX.
If NGVs dont take off here in the USA, at least I will continue to have a reliable local source and NEVER have to wait for fuel!
I still want a VRA INSIDE my garage,
Oh yeah I forgot to tell everyone, I got laid off from my job of 9 years yesterday, I got 20 years AutoCad and 3-D Solid modeling (CADD) experinece,
OK my rant is over!

Johhny,

Been there done that 3 times. Sucks to have your carpet pulled out and tossed away. I was laid off in 81 for 1 year, permanently in 84 when the BPA ran our aluminum plant out of business. Again in 93 for 3 and a half, then again in 2003 for 1 and a half after the 9-11 deal. Not a good thing when everybody stops flying. If it means anything our people are saying this may last less time than 6 years ago. That was a blood bath for us. Nature of aerospace for me. If you can afford it, take a few weeks, months off, and collect some of that unemployment your employer paid in for you. They have actually cancelled most of the WARN notices they issued 2 months back. Extremely out of character, if they issue them they usually kick you out the door.

I would really like for someone in the government to explain to me where all this electric power is going to come from. EPA policies being what they are now, no new dams, no nukes, and coal is not really what I call sustainable around here. Maybe back East. Out of thin air from what I am told and see.

Most people/dealers have no clue about CNG. That is why it is so easy to jack product supply around. And trust me the government and big business are all using that to an advantge. Literally nobody cares/knows outside of the core group. Obama is pushing the electric technology, and even really efficient motors are a few more years away. That technology is borrowed from other sectors right now.

To tell you the truth I get this one comment everytime I get asked about the car. "Will it blow up in an accident?" (explanation time about 8 or 9 times so far) They have never been exposed to NG other than the great explosions in the movies everytime a house blows up. That is what most people know about Gas. I do not think this will kill it, but it sure is not doing it any good. 10 steps back, and maybe 30 or 40 off to the side. There is just little education all the way around. To the government and everyone else it is simply a utility, it IS NOT fuel.

[siai47]

Re: Electric cars vs. NGVs

If we are on an electric car vs. NGV rant, I would like to chime in here. Both vehicles have their place and we need them both. For starters, most people get hybrids and electric vehicles mixed up. They share some common components but are two different animals. A hybrid has a fossil fuel engine and some way (usually electric) to recapture energy from deceleration and braking. An electric vehicle has no fossil fuel engine and runs on electricity alone. With the need to extend it's range because of limited energy storage in it's batteries, all modern electric vehicles recapture energy to recharge the batteries. Electrics perform very well in urban enviornments. Short, stop and go trips are well suited to this type of vehicle. A range of 100 or more miles in an urban driving cycle is within the capabilities of a modern vehicle. As far as charging is concerned, the existing infrastructure should be able to accomodate a ton of these vehicles before more power plants need to be built. Charging a electric vehicle is more like time filling a CNG vehicle. You can quick charge the vehicle, however the power demand for that type of service will only be available in commercial or industrial districts with large high voltage 3-phase service. Seeing how every home has the infrastructure to "time fill" I would assume most would be filled at home and at night. Power systems see large swings in load during a 24 hour period and at night, when the load is lowest, most large power plants are idling wasting fuel. After the commercial and industrial loads are gone, and the A/C loads during the day are reduced, there is plenty of excess power for charging available.

So what if I want to go see Aunt Martha who lives 200 miles away? This is what you use a fossil fueled car for. And there is no reason that that car cannot be a CNG/hybrid. All you Civic owners out there---look at your fuel economy and see what happens on short runs vs. reasonable highway driving (not talking 80 mph here ). If you added a hybrid drive, the economy in town would be even higher. The other benefit of the CNG vehicle is its greater basic range and that fast filling is available for road trips.

The bottom line is you need to choose the vehicle for your needs. If you are fortunate to be able to have two vehicles you should have one of each. If you are not, choose which vehicle fits your needs most of the time. It is not unreasonable to have a city (electric) vehicle and when you need to go on a trip, rent a car of trade your electric for a friends fossil fueled vehicle .

For the past four years, I have been driving both. I have a Rav4 EV that I drive daily from my home about 22 miles from my work. During the day I average between 60-70 miles total. I recharge at night and with time of day electric metering (yes, the utilities give you a break for charging when the loads are lowest) my cost to drive is less the a dollar a day for the electricity. Because I live in an area that has no NGV fueling, I drive my Civic for trips of less then 200 miles, or for long trips I use a Cavalier. It all works. Is it cost effective? Yes and no. For the Rav4 EV, even with low gasoline prices, the Rav is a hands down winner on energy costs. In addition, the resale price has held up very well on the Rav as it is selling for more then I paid for it four years ago. The Civic would be a winner also if I didn't have to pay for the fuelmaker--even so, with $2.00 gasoline I am still ahead because of my NG costs and the fuel economy of the Civic. The Cavalier, because of it's lower fuel economy and range might be a wash cost wise--but it's still a neat car.

So do we really want to talk about electric cars vs. NGVs--or should our focus be on electric cars and NGVs? I just wish we had a wide choice of both in our future. The technology is there for both vehicles, the need is there---lets get them into the marketplace and let it sort it out .

[Gerben]

Re: Electric cars vs. NGVs

Hybrids, NGVs and EVs largely target the same market segments. That will make it a lot more difficult for both to get introduced.
I'd like to add that there is also a PHEV (plug-in hybrid EV). Technically it is mostly a normal hybrid, but often with larger batteries and uses some power from the grid, while normal hybrids are just an efficient type of gasoline vehicle.
I don't expect much from full EVs except some city vehicles and a few 'commuter cars' - vehicles people use as a second car for local traffic, while having a longer range family car on the side.
I myself use a human-electric hybrid: an electric bicycle. Same market as the commuter car. I only use it with good wether. Too bad I live in a country where it rains almost every day.
You see that as a market gets more CNG stations, NGVs become more suitable to leave the 'local traffic' market. This is now starting to happen in the Netherlands.

[freedml]

Re: Electric cars vs. NGVs

Ok, so I'm guessing BEV means Battery Electric Vehicle. Are there Electric Vehicles that don't have Batteries???

[scott]

Re: Electric cars vs. NGVs

Maybe a straight solar electric or straight fuel cell EV, but they are generally constructed like a hybrid for more efficiency.

[cngacrossusa]

Re: Electric cars vs. NGVs

If I were Obama, I would NOT give another penny to GM or Dodge (or ANY other carmaker in USA) that first didn't guarantee that they would manufacture AND SELL (in all lower 48 states) a mass produced PIEV (plug-in electric vehicle) in MINIMUM quantities over 100,000 per year. Look it up as I read that only 12,500 either electric or alternative fuel vehicles are the only annual requirement thus far . . . what a joke!!

Also, as I've learned the tremendous benefits of cng, EVERY USA automaker (or distributor of ANY brand of vehicles in USA) would HAVE to offer multiple models in both cng dedicated and bi-fuel designs (with MINIMUM DRIVING RANGE on cng at 350 miles per tank of cng). Also a MINIMUM of 5 auto dealers (or auto manufacturing sites) in every state would have to have public cng available for refueling that would reduce distance in EVERY STATE to less than 150 miles between cng public refueling. Further, EVERY large vehicle over 4,000 lbs would HAVE to be offered in both dedicated cng . . . AND bi-fuel models!!! Finally, the penalty for not complying with minimum cng and electric requirements, COMPANY WOULD BECOME NATIONALIZED . . . poof, overnite GM would disappear and become a department of the US Government!! Then, the USA could proceed to FORCE strategic locations for public cng ALL ACROSS THE USA.

Back to electric - - - Vehicle should have small on-board generator and cng as fuel to power the generator once batteries ran out. This would be the cleanest and IMMEDIATELY available vehicle in America!! Hydrogen is 30+ years away and it's danger as a fuel WILL LIKELY PREVENT it from every becoming commonplace in attorney-filled USA.

P.S. Google and learn what Neil Young is doing with a 50's Cadillac to convert it to electric and cng power - - - - yep, they yanked the old Internal Combustion Engine right out of that old Caddie!!

[CH-4]

Re: Electric cars vs. NGVs

This is not a versus issue, but a very complicated issue, based upon the American automotive experience. Over the years automotive power has become the mainstay, if not the economic backbone of this country. Trucks move, not just all over the country, but country to country; SUVs move our families to school and shopping. We're addicted to the Internal Combustion Engine because it gives us the biggest bang for the buck.
There are two main issues not necessarily in order; environment and economics. Environmentally, both NGVs and EVs are the clear answer, however EVs at this point are economically unfeasible based on the current "needs" we impose on our preferred mode of transportation. Economically, our immediate future would be more secure if we used the NGV or LNGV as a bridge to our future the EV.
Currently, we're at least 20 years from developing battery technology that will run our vehicles on the freeway for 2 or 3 hours and that will recharge as fast as an NGV or gasoline burner. To put this into perspective, our home that is off grid and solar powered requires 10 AGM (absorbed glass mat) batteries, which are the current state of the art in battery technology, each weighing in at 175 lbs each to keep the house operational when the sun sets. In order to move the amount of mass these 10 batteries have, plus a vehicle, plus 2 passengers, these 10 batteries produce only enough energy to run about 60 minutes at 60MPH and would require a 20AH recharge for at least 4 hours before repeating another hour at 60MPH. This is a huge limitation. This is the crucial barrier we must overcome in EV design; something like the speed of sound, but for EVs.
The Tesla (the car) incorporates laptop batteries to do what it does, but still is a long way from shuttling our kids to school or commuting to work (let's not to forget the sticker shock). The Volt is a pipe dream because the physics make no sense under the current technology. That leaves plug-in hybrids.
An absurd idea actually perpetrated by Toyota themselves, when they set speed/charge limitations in their software (you can make an aftermarket change to the software to change this nonsense). Once the software was changed it became apparent more battery power was needed, hence the plug-in was born. Environmentally and economically, plug-in hybrids are asinine, mainly because their overall carbon footprint is double that of gasoline or CNG powered vehicles.
After dabbling into EVs for a number of years I have come to the conclusion that Tesla (the man) was right; AC is the answer. Yet, our current technology is not capable of producing AC inverter/fuel cells that can reproduce what gasoline is capable of; the main reason Ballard (the first pioneers) sold off all of its automotive intellectual and developmental rights to Ford.
As in all things, CNG is just a stepping stone, but one that must be embraced for the short term. The next step, LNG?
I've left out hydrogen, because as anybody who knows, the math/physics, just don't work; after all how hard is it to produce a vehicle that runs on single malt scotch? And can we or the environment afford it?
I'll leave you with this: After showing our solar powered (and green) home to some friends, we were standing in the garage when one pointed out the Phill in wonder, asking "whats that?". I started explaining what it was, its cost benefits and its "green" value when I was interrupted by one of my friends who said "you had me at 60 cents a gallon".

[freedml]

Re: Electric cars vs. NGVs

It's not very complicated. EVs just aren't there yet except for short commutes to and from work where the car sits on a charger most of the time. NGVs are there but are being ignored because they only put out less CO2, not zero CO2 (conveniently ignoring that making electricity produces CO2 or that converting NG to H2 also produces CO2 and both use Natural Gas as their primary fuel, at least in California).

[CH-4]

Re: Electric cars vs. NGVs

Actually, most of Socal's electricity comes from NG, Nuc, oil, hydro, coal, and solar in that order. Nearly 1/3 is Nuclear, isn't that a blast. By the way CO2 isn't the big problem with fossil fuels, its CO which breaks down in the atmosphere after about two weeks to become CO2 shedding carbon that absorb more O2 from the atmosphere.

[freedml]

Re: Electric cars vs. NGVs

"By the way CO2 isn't the big problem with fossil fuels, it's CO"

That's bizarre. According to www.naturalgas.org burning NG puts out 3000x more CO2 than CO. So, even if all the CO is converted to CO2, it is a drop in the bucket.

Even if you're right, no one's talking about CO. All the scare tactics focus on CO2.

[freedml]

Re: Electric cars vs. NGVs

Here are 2008 numbers on California energy sources:


Natural Gas 46.5% Nuclear 14.9% Large Hydro 9.6% Coal* 15.5% Renewable 13.5%

[Gerben]

Re: Electric cars vs. NGVs

By the way CO2 isn't the big problem with fossil fuels, its CO which breaks down in the atmosphere after about two weeks to become CO2 shedding carbon that absorb more O2 from the atmosphere.

Not sure where you got that idea.

the 100-year GWP for CO is likely to be 1.0 to 3.0

http://www.grida.no/publications/other/ipcc_tar/?src=/CLIMATE/IPCC_TAR/wg1/249.htm

It has some effect, but due to the small amounts it's not a significant problem.

[CH-4]

Re: Electric cars vs. NGVs

This is high school chemistry. There's endless studies on this topic that if you want, I can quote as many studies as you. This is a no-brainer; CO is unstable and CO2 is stable; if you produce CO it wants to become CO2. It has to get its extra O somewhere. Easiest way is directly out of the atmosphere. The rest binds with sulphur and nitrogen.
This is the most credible argumement for NGVs as they don't produce much CO and less CO2 than gasoline or other hydrocarbons. CH4 is fairly stable, except when you burn it, it also likes sulphur and nitrogen; hence CH4's issue with the production of acid rain. NG has the same issues as hydrogen when burned.
When we burn CH4 or H2 with pure oxygen; not a problem, however we live in a nitrogen atmosphere and this leads to nitric acids and nitrous oxides, basically acid rain.
Before you quote some questionable info; remember, basic chemistry is basic chemistry.
So far the benefits to our environment to go electric with our transportation isn't anywhere close enough to NGVs on terms of their total C, CO or CO2 footprint to compete.
Show me the battery!

[tomdotstar]

Re: Electric cars vs. NGVs

The revealing thing about freedmls numbers is that electric car advocates suggest we burn natural gas to generate electricity, transport that electricity over an inefficient and aging grid, then store electricity in batteries, and finally use the electricity in an electric motor to move a car.

Hummm, maybe we could just use the natural gas to move the car.

Just a thought.