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Mr. Bush, resends executive order (from his dady) Drill, Drill, Drill.

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  • Mr. Bush, resends executive order (from his dady) Drill, Drill, Drill.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25674571/

    http://getenergysmartnow.com/?p=600

    Hat tip David Roberts, Grist; and, just after I posted, Joe Romm posted an excellent piece on “eco-Gingrich’s new energy strategy for America”.

    the Administration’s own Energy Information Administration explained in 2004 how ineffectual this strategy is. In a 2004 Congressional-requested “Analysis of Oil and Gas Production in ANWR”:

    It is expected that the price impact of ANWR coastal plain production might reduce world oilprices by as much as 30 to 50 cents per barrel [in 2025].

    As Joe reminded Gingrich: “There are 42 gallons in a barrel.” Yup. Newt’s strategy might (MIGHT) lead to up to a 1.2 cent per gallon reduction in the price of gasoline. McSUV drivers: don’t spend your savings all at once.
    CH

  • #2
    Re: Mr. Bush, resends executive order (from his dady) Drill, Drill, Drill.

    I'm not going to start a political argument, but I want you to answer some questions for me.

    What do you think has caused the drive-up in oil prices? This is what's called a "loaded question", since I know what the answer is already. But try it anyway.

    How much do analysts, and even OPEC, say the price of oil "should" be?

    And now, what would happen to our economy if the supply of oil from the Middle East were to suddenly stop?

    In all fairness, I should say that I "signed" Gingrich's petition. Before you dismiss it, take a look at the website and the links to some articles.

    http://www.americansolutions.com

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Mr. Bush, resends executive order (from his dady) Drill, Drill, Drill.

      What the "right" answer is depends on who you are listening to. Speculators are a part of why oil is were its at right now, but its not the entire answer. Demand has also increased globally.

      Dumping the reserve into the market will get us into hot water with the WTO. Manipulating markets is not something we want to do. How about if China decided to manipulate the currency market in return?

      I am all for energy exploration in the US, but I am not for trading the Appellations or Yellowstone for energy. There has to be a better way to get energy than by removing mountains, and burning them. 63 million acres of land is already leased to energy companies for exploration. The cost of developing that land is far higher than drilling in ANWR where they know there is oil.

      Does anyone remember why offshore oil drilling became illegal? Remeber Valdez? Tar covered beaches in CA? Dead birds and seals on the beach?

      Do we need to travel further down the same road faster, or change how we are living to have less of an impact on the earth.

      53% of the oil that we use comes from the US and Canada. If we switch from SUV's that get 15mpg, to cars that get 35mpg, and add natual gas, and nuclear into the mix, we will be off foreign oil. That may not effect the price of oil. Its still a commodity market. The important part is that we are less volnerable to price flucuations in that market, and our kids will be able to see the mountains in the area that is called the Appellations.

      All of this takes time. The reason I am on this site, and the reason I promote CNG for vehicles in Michigan is because I feel it is the only solution that is doable in the short term. In my eyes, its the only solution that can have ANY returns within 5 years.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Mr. Bush, resends executive order (from his dady) Drill, Drill, Drill.

        I think it is about time the Democrats take responsibility for the crisis they have caused by listening to the ideological ramblings from the environmental lobby (note: the environmental lobby are lawyers and tree huggers, not environmental scientists). We are now paying the costs of their mistaken follies over the last two decades- continuing this nonsense only seals the fate for our kids and later generations.

        When you cut energy supplies, commodity prices rise until the demand pressure equalizes the price level. The left have/ARE blocking all new refineries, nuclear generating plants, and development of new energy sources like nat gas. Just look at Polosi's ignorant statements this week as an example of what is really going on, not what they want you to believe with their rhetoric.

        IMHO, ANWAR is too big! Im all for keeping pristine wilderness areas clean, but the coastal area next to the oil/gas rich Prudoe Bay is not what Id call pristine wilderness- it is flat frozen tundra. The same blocking efforts is true of most of the oil shale/sand areas. PS, the caribou like the heat radiated from the Alaskan pipelines- they stay close because they want to, not because it affects their migration routes. ANWAR is another case of liberal misdirection- their goal is to increase the costs of energy high enough to force use reduction. Trouble is, they ignore the other side effects like how it kills our economy (and the rest of the world as well), takes jobs, creates widespread hunger and poverty, and transfers wealth to the middle east.

        I might add, historically oil spills have not come from drilling, it comes from ships running around- human error where pipelines have not been built. Drilling is environmentally safe and clean- the byproduct is rock/dirt and drilling mud, not oil sludge.
        Last edited by rtry9a; 07-15-2008, 07:44 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Mr. Bush, resends executive order (from his dady) Drill, Drill, Drill.

          There have been 843 oil spills off CA from 1969 -1999 from the offshore oil rigs.

          http://www.marineornithology.org/PDF..._6_mccrary.pdf

          Only 8% of our oil comes from the middle east.

          Flat frozen tunda is pristine, and environmentally valuable. Its not vacation property.

          Energy companies have not built new refinerys because they dont have to. The existing refinerys have been updated and thier capaciy has been improved to keep up with demand. They have closed refinerys because they have too much capacity.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Mr. Bush, resends executive order (from his dady) Drill, Drill, Drill.

            More short term, quick answers, to an Energy Crisis (Crisis, what Crisis?)

            BTW: During a presidential and congressional election year. Coincidence? Right!

            Drilling aint gonna help.

            Anyone seen the strip mines in CO after the companies leave?
            The water contamination, air pollution, roads that won't be erased from the landscape for thousands of years.

            It's not the Sierra Club's study, it the EIA.
            The EIA says it's not even close to worth it.

            Who do you listen to... Anyone?
            CH

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Mr. Bush, resends executive order (from his dady) Drill, Drill, Drill.

              Originally posted by ch4 View Post
              More short term, quick answers, to an Energy Crisis (Crisis, what Crisis?)

              BTW: During a presidential and congressional election year. Coincidence? Right!

              Drilling aint gonna help.
              I'm afraid you won't answer my questions because you know what the answers are, and they are in contrast to your opinions. The run-up in oil is partly due to speculation. Just today oil dropped $10 due to worries about our economy. What would happen if Congress lifted the ban on further off-shore drilling? The speculators would sell off and the price of oil would fall, even though no new platforms would be in production for at least 3 years.

              If that isn't true, then oil would be selling for $60 a barrel, as analysts and OPEC have said.

              What happens when a commodity, plentiful in supply, is expected to be reduced or increased? The former, price gouging. The latter, prices fall. How about the price of electronics? Remember when DVD players used to be $200-300? Now you can get one for $20. More suppliers, lower costs of production. Apply the same sound economic principles to more oil on the market, more refineries.

              But I will say one thing, that no other industry is allowed to produce a raw material, turn it into a finished product, and sell it at company owned stores. In any other industry, it would be called a monopoly. Somehow the oil companies get away with it. Not only would a breakup of the industry lower prices, but a viable alternative to gasoline from crude oil would help as well. The US military used to produce gasoline from coal at an equivalent of $1 a gallon in today's prices until Congress killed the program in 1981.

              And Congress again is trying to find any way possible to kill the economy, and with it, starve millions of people around the world by promoting ethanol.
              Last edited by alliedmotors; 07-15-2008, 11:50 AM.

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              • #8
                Re: Mr. Bush, resends executive order (from his dady) Drill, Drill, Drill.

                Originally posted by RaulLasVegas View Post
                There have been 843 oil spills off CA from 1969 -1999 from the offshore oil rigs.

                Data is probably biased... all spills are not necessarily damaging to the environment (oil is naturally occurring and oxidized by natural processes. I think this study was geared to bird populations.

                http://www.marineornithology.org/PDF..._6_mccrary.pdf

                Only 8% of our oil comes from the middle east.
                I think your numbers are a little low (more in the 20% range)... but you are correct that most of the US oil comes from domestic sources + Canada, Mexico, and Venezuela; but wrong in that we are really talking about a world market

                Flat frozen tunda is pristine, and environmentally valuable. Its not vacation property.
                Pristine yes, but environmentally valuable? To whom? I believe it is all a cost:benefit relationship where, in this case, the benefits far exceed potential costs. The area surrounding Prudoe Bay holds some of the richest known oil and gas deposits in the world; it is not the happy hunting ground for caribou...

                Energy companies have not built new refineries because they dont have to. The existing refinerys have been updated and thier capaciy has been improved to keep up with demand. They have closed refinerys because they have too much capacity.
                This is the only point where I believe you are wrong... The refineries have not been built because of the costs associated with permitting and delays caused by (EPA) and the related risk liabilities. The EPA regulates new plants very differently than it does older "grandfathered" refineries. I think the oil companies don't want to meet market demands to keep prices high when they can find excuses to do so
                Last edited by rtry9a; 07-15-2008, 12:15 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Mr. Bush, resends executive order (from his dady) Drill, Drill, Drill.

                  Originally posted by ch4 View Post
                  More short term, quick answers, to an Energy Crisis (Crisis, what Crisis?)
                  Good point, IMHO, high fuel prices hurt a lot of people across the board, in all products

                  BTW: During a presidential and congressional election year. Coincidence? Right!
                  What coincidence- this country has failed to establish an energy policy for decades, through a bunch of administrations from both sides. It is high time we do what is necessary as a country and stop ignoring important issues that are politically unpopular with liberals. ( FWIW, Im not personally against liberals- I believe it is necessary to compromise and find decent solutions for us all).

                  Drilling aint gonna help.
                  Like eating won't cure starvation

                  Anyone seen the strip mines in CO after the companies leave?
                  The water contamination, air pollution, roads that won't be erased from the landscape for thousands of years.
                  What do old strip mines have to do with drilling for oil? IMHO, that was a Colorado based problem and a failure to enforce /regulate sufficient regulations

                  It's not the Sierra Club's study, it the EIA.
                  The EIA says it's not even close to worth it.What study are you referring to? The EIA does not have a lot to do with the oil industry, btw, they mostly gather statistics of questionable accuracy- but better than no data at all Id suppose.

                  Who do you listen to... Anyone?
                  Don't listen- study and make up your own mind. Im not particularly impressed with the knowledge of the average American voter- they listen way too much to headlines and ignore the underlying facts.
                  Last edited by rtry9a; 07-15-2008, 12:14 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Mr. Bush, resends executive order (from his dady) Drill, Drill, Drill.

                    The EIA IS the Bush Adminstration.

                    As for speculation the SEC needs to regulate this mess.
                    Hope you did not have any Fannie May or Mac.

                    While you may know Economics you have no factual evidence that opening ANWR or off coast drilling will drive down prices. However, there have been empirical oil spills, on and off coast.

                    Empirically, Big Oil companies have NOT been good stewards of our land.

                    But to bring this back to CNG, while we are drilling, there is no incentive for alternate fuels.
                    This happens time and again - prices go up, panic, blame, NO action.
                    Prices go down - yes they will go down. OPEC is NOT happy.
                    Still no US Energy plan except drill, drill, drill.

                    And Big Oil is getting Billions (with a B) of our tax dollars as incentives.
                    CH

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Mr. Bush, resends executive order (from his dady) Drill, Drill, Drill.

                      More info:

                      http://www.alternet.org/environment/...b130fffa655020
                      CH

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                      • #12
                        Re: Mr. Bush, resends executive order (from his dady) Drill, Drill, Drill.

                        Originally posted by ThunderStik View Post
                        Wow! Way to put words in my mouth...
                        I never quoted you. I responded to my own thread.
                        I have no idea what you know so putting words in your mouth would be aggravating. and senseless.
                        CH

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                        • #13
                          Re: Mr. Bush, resends executive order (from his dady) Drill, Drill, Drill.

                          Well, I live in Oklahoma and I do believe we like to drill. The oil companies here, have a running campaign to clean up left over rigs from years before. and its a phone call away, they knew they abandoned sites without thinking. So, they are taking care it. Plus going forward, they take care of it on the spot. Oh, by the way I don't work for an oil company. I am a pee on that the prices are killing me(hence why I am here trying to live my life the way I want too not how the government wants me too).

                          A lot of the spills Like the valdez, last I checked came from boats bringing us us oil. not from rigs dumping it in like Valdez which was an outdated boat(with a drunk captain). As far as your statement about the oil spills they make up of 1% of the oil in the oceans, yet the Great Planet Earth seeps through the ocean floor 3% into our ocean. Don't forget about about the boats that ship it over here instead of a pipeline from the rigs. Gimme a day and I'll get you the government study that shows this. Let me know if ya need it.
                          Last edited by wtrmn76; 07-15-2008, 05:23 PM. Reason: Spelling errors

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                          • #14
                            Re: Mr. Bush, resends executive order (from his dady) Drill, Drill, Drill.

                            My data is biased? I posted the link. It was a study from the US dept of the Interior. I guess its biased because it was a fact that didn't use emotional words.

                            7% from Saudi's, and 3% from Iraq. I would guess Kuwait is part of the "other" section. I was suprised in the data to see that most of our oil comes from the US. Our biggest imports come from Canada. Foriegn oil, eh? 60% comes from North America.

                            Here is an interesting link to the data refered to above.
                            http://www.energytomorrow.org/media/resources/r_586.pdf

                            Financial reasons. It all boils down to that. Do you drill, or not. What is the cost compared to the return. If the yield of the well isn't enought to support the development at the projected market price...

                            Do you spend money to increase capacity? Excess capacity is money wasted. Why increase capacity when demand will drop in 10 years. Wheres the return on the investment?

                            Who owns "big oil"? I do, dont you? :-)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Mr. Bush, resends executive order (from his dady) Drill, Drill, Drill.

                              Originally posted by wtrmn76 View Post
                              A lot of the spills Like the valdez, last I checked came from boats bringing us us oil... oil spills they make up of 1% of the oil in the oceans, yet the Great Planet Earth seeps through the ocean floor 3% into our ocean. Don't forget about about the boats that ship it over here instead of a pipeline from the rigs. Gimme a day and I'll get you the government study that shows this. Let me know if ya need it.
                              WTRMN 76;

                              These are good points. Thank you. However, petroleum seeped out of the ocean floor is quite different from petro lost onto the ocean surface because the life forms are so different, especially on the microbial level.

                              There are entire ecosystems on the seafloor that are based on thermal vents from the earth's core--not the sun. I would not be the least bit surprised to see either the same or similar circumstances with the ocean floor petroleum seepage. The presence of petroleum on the ocean surface is not a "native" condition for the life forms along the surface, so I would not compare surface spills with bottom seepage given what happens to seabirds and other non-gilled aquatic animals.

                              A lot of non-scientists on both sides of environmental issues tend to miss these issues, and I have even seen some of the nerds miss the boat, too. We had a fishkill once because someone--legally permitted, no less--tipped two truckloads of storm-damaged tomatoes into a stream that fed into a river. The change in pH shocked the system so bad that it wiped out my favorite fishing spot for months.

                              Having said all that, I believe we would be better off asking the guys who have learned all the extraction geology and its surrounding chemistry to trade oil drilling for nat gas synthesis off of our waste stream. It will be cheaper up front, it will establish an economic precedent for sustainability, and it will leave a bunch of places alone that are a pain in the butt to get to anyway.

                              PS Raul, thank you for your defense of the Appalachian mountains.

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