Conspiracy Therory...well...

[Ramaniac]

First I must say I think conspiracy theories are never founded on fact. Here is one for you. We are trying to suck the oil out of the entire world, so that we are left as the sole providers of the worlds' oil supply.

Why do I think this?

I met a man when I attended William Jewell College that worked for Amoco. Guess what he did? Tapped new wells all over and then filled them with concrete. Why? You might be able to guess. He also said America had a two year supply above ground at all times. This is not what is reported, but it is true.

Oil is a finite product. When it is gone, it is gone. America is so blessed with so much oil, but they are smart enough not to use it up. Why does ethanol cost so much? Why are we chasing this red herring? Why do so many of you complain about the high cost of certification, installation, and government red tape? As a common man, I see CNG as a rich man's game for now, with no good explaination as to the very high cost.

You know why. Ask yourself what would happen if 50% of all cars were CNG? America from its own reserves could glut the American market if they wanted too. Or do you think America has run dry? Then why don't they give us a break when gasoline is so high and increase supply?

Rant over.

[cnielsen]

Re: Conspiracy Therory...well...

In the end, it is because we have un-informed consumers. Not only that, the education in the US has dumbed down people where they cant do simple math.

[mickey]

Re: Conspiracy Therory...well...

First I must say I think conspiracy theories are never founded on fact. Here is one for you. We are trying to suck the oil out of the entire world, so that we are left as the sole providers of the worlds' oil supply.

Why do I think this?

I met a man when I attended William Jewell College that worked for Amoco. Guess what he did? Tapped new wells all over and then filled them with concrete. Why? You might be able to guess. He also said America had a two year supply above ground at all times. This is not what is reported, but it is true.

Oil is a finite product. When it is gone, it is gone. America is so blessed with so much oil, but they are smart enough not to use it up. Why does ethanol cost so much? Why are we chasing this red herring? Why do so many of you complain about the high cost of certification, installation, and government red tape? As a common man, I see CNG as a rich man's game for now, with no good explaination as to the very high cost.

You know why. Ask yourself what would happen if 50% of all cars were CNG? America from its own reserves could glut the American market if they wanted too. Or do you think America has run dry? Then why don't they give us a break when gasoline is so high and increase supply?

Rant over.

If he was doing that it's because the wells weren't producing enough to be profitable, and reclamation regs require that the abandoned wells be capped for safety reasons. You cannot prevent access to an oil FIELD simply by capping a well. Somebody could quite easily drill a hole 10 feet away and hit the same oil. They cap the things so little Timmy doesn't fall down there.

America DOES have approximately a 2-year supply of crude in the strategic reserves, combined with normal inventory. And there is no reason to dip into it. Refineries are running at capacity in this country. We cannot produce more gasoline that we are currently producing. There is no shortage of oil.

Oil prices themselves are reflective of two problems. First, the dollar is extremely weak. We import 80% of our oil, and pay for it with dollars. Therefore, it stand to reason that it'll take a lot of dollars to buy that oil. (The U.S. dollar is the standard currency for international oil trade for ALL countries, in fact, much to their chagrin.) Second, oil prices are being driven upward by the same big money speculators who drove the real estate bubble. When that one burst, they had to put their money somewhere. Oil and precious metals are the current darlings of the speculators, just as dot-com stocks were big in the '90s. This bubble will burst, as all bubbles eventually do.

I'm no expert, but I'd say if you want to jump on the bandwagon you'd better not lock up your money for longer than 3 or 4 more months. Beyond that and you risk a MAJOR kick in the wallet. Oil prices will correct downward below their "natural" values. Then swing back up, and then down, etc, in a oscillations of declining magnitude until the prices become more or less stable again at a realistic level. In the VERY long run, of course, oil is a finite resource and prices will tend upward until the stuff is no longer economically viable as an energy source. But the current "crisis" is nothing but speculation. This too shall pass.

What would happen if 50% of cars were CNG? The price of natural gas would skyrocket to the point where people wouldn't be able to heat their homes, and we'd deplete the finite supply of gas at an alarming rate. I don't plan to brag much about my 64-cent fuel. Why would I want other people to jump on the bandwagon and spoil the party? When one seagull finds a bit of sandwich, does he sit there and pig out in front of the other seagulls? No, because he knows they'd take it from him. He tries to fly off and hide so he can eat it in peace. I may even peel all the "NGV" stickers off my new Civic. "Nothing to see here, folks. Move along...."

CNG is not "the answer." "The answer" cannot involve fossil fuels for the simple reason that they will run out.

The Answer will be multi-faceted, but the most important long term answer for personal transportation ("cars") will be hydrogen fuel cells using hydrogen from seawater, which in turn must be extracted using energy from hydroelectric, wind, solar and, above all, NUCLEAR energy.

We need a serious initiative to build a LOT of fast breeder reactors. Right now. At best, if we started hitting it hard tomorrow morning, it'd be 20 years before breeder reactors would start making a serious difference. And we probably don't have 20 years.

Breeder reactors produce vastly more energy from a given amount of uranium than conventional reactors, and the end product is a comparatively "safe" medium-level material with a half-life much shorter than current high-level waste. In fact, the high-level waste we're so concerned about storing somewhere for the next quarter million years is perfectly good FUEL for a breeder reactor. It would be absurd to bury it.

Why don't we build breeder reactors in this country? Because one of the daughter products in the decay sequence of uranium is PLUTONIUM, and we don't trust ourselves with it. We trust the French with it. We trust the Germans with it. We trust the Japanese with it. But we don't trust ourselves.

You know the old saying: "One we've tried everything else America eventually tries doing the right thing." We'll get around to the obvious, eventually. But we'll suffer an awful lot before we wake up and get on task.

[Ramaniac]

Re: Conspiracy Therory...well...

I was under the impression that the concrete cap was to gain easier access later.

No, I was just letting off some steam because I think there is potential in NG if the government would get out of the way. I feel bad for you guys that are getting it stuck to you monetarily, for trying to do something good. It should not be this way!

[scott]

Re: Conspiracy Therory...well...

Well said Mickey. I think that is why Honda has a long range Hydrogen/electric plan.

[rtry9a]

Re: Conspiracy Therory...well...

Mikey-
Right on the money about nuclear, missed the target on oil/gas.

Oil is expensive for two reasons- one, the declining dollar as you mentioned, but the bigger factor is that world reserves are at/past their peak production levels and demand is increasing rapidly, mostly due to wasteful practices in the US and extremely fast industrial growth in China and India. A few years ago, the world market had a small excess capacity of oil that made the market stable and cheap. Once the excess levels were siphoned by increased demand, the spot market took over control of the oil bidding war. Prices rose accordingly.

We compete in a global oil market where output is mostly controlled by a weak monopoly- Russia is changing that scenario to some extent, but I personally do not expect oil prices to fall below $80/brl again under ideal conditions.

Natural gas normally has a price to btu relationship with oil because many utilities have the capability to substitute one for the other depending on price. Historically, the price relationship hovered around 6:1 but has dropped the last few years due mostly several years of unseasonal mild weather that built up natgas reserves to record levels. Natgas is mostly used for electrical generation and heating. The US has huge untouched reserves of natural gas. FWIW, many exploration companies capped wells this last year because the prices fell too low to make profit; it made more sense to hold production of the marginal wells until later when prices return to normal levels as they recently have.

The last winter was a little colder than normal and the reserve fell, prices have risen. Natgas is mostly a local market that is geographically bound to the interior by distribution pipes. LNG ports and tanktrucks could change the distribution scenrio in time, moving more gas use to the coasts.

The last point- unless the US tightens its belt until it hurts to become financially responsible (highly unlikely from either of the current parties), commodities will keep value, and may very well be the only way anyone can combat inflation in the long term. My advise is to either keep gold/silver bullion, or invest in gas/oil reserves and/or in the strongest mining companies located abroad where products are not dependent on the US dollar.

[camryman]

Re: Conspiracy Therory...well...

Nuclear who wants that in your backyard....Yes they work to make the power but they take for ever to build.

FYI there is a 200 year North American supply of Natural gas.... and by the way It's not all oil based. Land fills make methane...and so do pigs. So it can be renewable.

Plus it's here today and no infrastructure is needed for more than 50% of America that has natural gas at the home. Sell them a car, and a pump at the house and your ready to go. Boone Pickens said oil is going over $100 a barrel and not going back down a few years ago...We're at $123 a barrel today and we'll be at $150 in no time. and bought up NG and started CE.

Hydrogen works great as either A Internal combustion engine or electric Fuel Cell car but you have to build all the expensive infrastructure. And with hydrogen at $9 a gallon at one of the 3 pumps here in LA your dreaming if it's going to happen tomorrow even with Nuclear... Reactors take 20 years for plant to be approved and built with all the red tape. We have enough trouble building natural gas power plants.

CNG is the best foot forward to hydrogen since they both pump the same way and work the same way for the internal combustion engine. They even use almost the same parts.

If the Government, Lobbiest and Oil /auto companies were all on the same side for CNG this could happen tomorrow and hydrogen could happen nation wide in 10 to 15 years. But they don't want to change and they don't want us off oil it's too profitable. Everyone is on gasoline crack... Were so addicted and no one knows the way to rehab....

Every car on the road today can be converted to CNG easily. It wouldn't cost the auto manufactures very much to do so. But what are the consequences of getting off oil.

The electric car got killed and crushed. EV Battery companies once owned by GM are now owned by oil companies and the battery patents are locked away,

Since 2005 Honda is the only OEM in the USA building CNG cars..... WHY did the big 3 stop? Smoke and mirrors for hydrogen hype and get us on the Gasoline Hybrids. Why not sell a CNG hybrid they have a test CNG prius in europe. They all want us addicted to gasoline.

CNG cars are built and sold everywhere in the world except the USA since we're addicted to gasoline. It would piss off Opec and Aramco. And actually we did when congress slated ethanol to be added into gasoline. Oil Production was slowed by opec increasing the price of oil.

What does the Government know about CNG

If everyone filled with CNG at home no gasoline tax would be collected. Hence no $$$ for uncle sam. Government is all ready in big debt and need all the $$$ they can get from our wallets. Both the State and Feds. Local governments are currently being robbed of tax $$$ to pay for the state and fed deficits. 200 million was taken from my city's general fund plus all the gas tax going to the state, but I won't get into this.

We all know how the government missed their opportunity to tax the internet...

What else does the gov know?
If all cars were running on CNG with synthetic oil no one would need 3k mile Oil changes. I go 30K between oil changes on synthetic oil in my NGV and it's still crystal clear. Try amsoil synthetic... Jobs will be lost due to infrequent oil changes Sales Tax$$$ decrease and Oil change shops close on low volume. Oil consumption is lower overall.

Engines last 3x longer so fewer Auto parts are bought. This creates less tax$$ for uncle sam and less $$$ for parts for auto companies. Jobs are lost and corporate profits decrease.

Fewer gas staion mini marts are needed since you can fill up at home, No underground gas station fuel tanks are needed. Oil and gas spills contaminating the soil and water become a thing of the past. Trucking gasoline isn't needed.... Jobs are lost and fewer trucks on the highway..

Smog stations will not be needed anymore due to cng being super clean burning fuel. There goes all the smog check jobs. And the air is almost smog free. And the USA is actually decreasing global warming.

Did you know that it costs over $300,000 to certify a car through CARB for smog. The state is making a few bucks here. If they allowed CNG conversion kits without this cost we would have lots of new jobs making cng kits and converting cars..

CNG is here today and as long as the fuel price stays well below gasoline and the politics against it stay away. CNG might have a chance to pave the way for hydrogen. Otherwise it will be killed off just like the electric car.

If you haven't seen the movie Who killed the electric car you should. And when you watch it think about natural gas cars.

[CNGfamily]

Re: Conspiracy Therory...well...

"If everyone filled with CNG at home no gasoline tax would be collected. Hence no $$$ for uncle sam. Government is all ready in big debt and need all the $$$ they can get from our wallets. Both the State and Feds. Local governments are currently being robbed of tax $$$ to pay for the state and fed deficits..."

Not sure where your no tax for fueling at home info comes from. I can tell you: 1. in Chandler, Arizona, Southwest Gas requires a separate meter and natural gas for refueling is taxed. and 2. in Mesa, Arizona, City of Mesa utilities also separately meters and taxes the natural gas to goes into the refueling appliance.

Not that I agree with everything else, just that I have personal experience that doesn't agree with this particular aspect. Overall a thought provoking discussion, let's keep it up!

[mickey]

Re: Conspiracy Therory...well...

Mikey-
Right on the money about nuclear, missed the target on oil/gas.

Oil is expensive for two reasons- one, the declining dollar as you mentioned, but the bigger factor is that world reserves are at/past their peak production levels and demand is increasing rapidly, mostly due to wasteful practices in the US and extremely fast industrial growth in China and India. A few years ago, the world market had a small excess capacity of oil that made the market stable and cheap. Once the excess levels were siphoned by increased demand, the spot market took over control of the oil bidding war. Prices rose accordingly.

We compete in a global oil market where output is mostly controlled by a weak monopoly- Russia is changing that scenario to some extent, but I personally do not expect oil prices to fall below $80/brl again under ideal conditions.

Natural gas normally has a price to btu relationship with oil because many utilities have the capability to substitute one for the other depending on price. Historically, the price relationship hovered around 6:1 but has dropped the last few years due mostly several years of unseasonal mild weather that built up natgas reserves to record levels. Natgas is mostly used for electrical generation and heating. The US has huge untouched reserves of natural gas. FWIW, many exploration companies capped wells this last year because the prices fell too low to make profit; it made more sense to hold production of the marginal wells until later when prices return to normal levels as they recently have.

The last winter was a little colder than normal and the reserve fell, prices have risen. Natgas is mostly a local market that is geographically bound to the interior by distribution pipes. LNG ports and tanktrucks could change the distribution scenrio in time, moving more gas use to the coasts.

The last point- unless the US tightens its belt until it hurts to become financially responsible (highly unlikely from either of the current parties), commodities will keep value, and may very well be the only way anyone can combat inflation in the long term. My advise is to either keep gold/silver bullion, or invest in gas/oil reserves and/or in the strongest mining companies located abroad where products are not dependent on the US dollar.

There has been a lot of talk about "peak oil" lately, but if that was the issue then production would be falling behind demand. It isn't. There is plenty of oil in the supply chain. And Brazil just discovered an absolutely gigantic offshore oil field.

The Peak Oil scenario will happen eventually, and probably soon with India and China demanding more and more all the time. But not yet. Besides, demand has DROPPED in the last few months. Yet prices continue to increase.

I have doubts about precious metals. They really have no inherent value beyond making electronics and chemotherapy drugs. You can't eat them. The concern isn't a relatively "artificial" crisis like the Great Depression, which was all about math, but a REAL crisis in which there isn't enough energy or food. You can shove gold coins in your tank but your car still won't run. In other words: You can solve a lack of strong currency with gold, but you cant' solve a lack of available food or fuel.

[mickey]

Re: Conspiracy Therory...well...

Electric cars: Unless you get your electricity from nuclear, wind or solar they're an environmental nightmare. Most electricity in this country comes from fossil fuels. Power plants are dirtier than cars, and they're less efficient. (Especially the coal kind, which ship the products hundreds of miles resulting in huge transmission losses.)

I have no idea why the Saturn cars were crushed, but EVs died in general because there was no market for them. GM lost huge amounts of money on each one, even with big taxpayer-funded incentives.

It is pure paranoia to think that they went away because some big industry or government didn't like them. If they were profitable they'd be made and they'd sell. "Big Oil" wouldn't mind them. Because they're less energy efficient than normal cars, "Big Oil" knows they'd sell even MORE product to electric utilities.

"Tax-free CNG": This is Utah. It's not taxed. The State doesn't tax it, and Questar passes the Federal incentives on to the customers. That's why it's .64 cents per GGE. It's a temporary marketing gimmick. And, in the long run, it's completely unfair because CNG vehicle drivers aren't paying for the roads they're using. I will happily sponge off the taxpayers, though, as long as I can get away with it.

[camryman]

Re: Conspiracy Therory...well...

If you don't like CNG and you don't like electric cars then What type of car do you drive........ What do lobbyists advertising and PR firms do...They persuade for big business to get what the business wants. Remember tobaccos was once good for you. It's all about the advertising and PR... plus the big $$$ political lobbyists..

Don't get me wrong I like nuclear, but lets be practical it's not going to happen overnight.

Natural gas is here today, hydrogen nation wide is 10 years away.

Don't forget to mention hydro electric power. And the EV Batteries can also be recycled. Plus the non foreign oil dependency and gain I'll say a 200 year supply of natural gas, with super low pollution.

Fuel is going to $5 or higher and we are headed for the next great depression due to several factors. Dollar deflation, outrageous energy costs, a real water shortage and food shortage and massive inflation are right around the corner. Who or what is causing this?

If we switched to natural gas and fuel was cheaper at a $1 a gallon the economy would pick back up due to lower transportation costs. But this $4 gas going higher is going to drain an all ready taxed economy. Plus the government is making a killing on fuel tax.

Yes there are Natural gas,diesel and coal power plants that pollute. The only ones that should be closed are the coal plants,, Diesel can be converted to bio fueled on WVO. But you still need these plants until you can build your nuclear reactors. There is a guy who has invented cheap flexible solar panel film technology, but who knows when it will get released.

Did you see who killed the electric car.

If you have seen the movie the guy who was the head honcho at carb Killed the electric car with a vote to get rid of the zero emmission vehicle law here in california.

Once the auto makers killed the zero emission laws. Alternative fueled vehicles started to disappear including CNG cars. That same guy at CARB who killed the zero emission law now works for a Hydrogen company subsidized by auto manufacturers and big oil, I'm sure he makes more money than he did working at CARB. Politics

Anyone who crosses big oil will loose. CARB board members who have crossed oil have lost auto/oil grant funding for the colleges they work at. They get black balled.

The technology is out there to make these cars and there is a following so why don't they get them advertised like SUV hummers and trucks every 15 minutes on TV. The honda hydrogen clarity was advertised a bit, but it's not available everywhere.
Honda is also only allowing leasing of the clarity car just like GM did with the ev1. So they can repossess them if gasoline gets cheap again.

The civic GX is popular, but you never see it advertised. The price of used GSA cavaliers has doubled in the last year. This is a very good indicator of CNG car demand. Just try to find one cheap. You can't...

Toyota doesn't make my car anymore a Toyota cng camry. Toyota Only built 300. Why because the car lasts over 300K miles and has a nice trunk with plenty of space and a 300 mile range. It was too good to mass produce and was only sold to fleets. Toyotas excuse a new model year redesign for camry and the birth of the prius canned the cng camry. Toyota went prius,

Today thank you Toyota for the prius without it no one would be making alt fueled cars and a really big shout out to the guys at Prius plus who made the plug in prius a reality. 09 prius is going to be plug in capable. Now if we can only get the Europe CNG prius version here in the USA. The Europe prius had a ev only button, but here in the states the EV only button could not pass epa or carb testing for emissions. It must have been too complicated to pass.

Honestly most people who look at the civic GX don't buy it because of the small trunk and limited range and a worry about filling up.

If the auto companies built a plug in hybrid cng car and told the public this is what they want through good advertising. People would want it and buy it.

Tell the people they want a plug in hybrid roomy safe CNG car with a 500 mile range and economy over 45 mi per gallon with cheap domestic CNG for a $1 a gallon.... Consumers would eat it up. Advertising works.

There were plenty of people that wanted the EV cars and they were all crushed except a few rav4's and ford Rangers EV's. With Gas going up you are going to see a lot more grass roots CNG and EV car companies springing up everywhere..

[camryman]

Re: Conspiracy Therory...well...

Taxes on Fuel
I pasted a link for tax info on gasoline per state. Every state is different. And DMV fees differ from state to state as well.

http://www.californiagasprices.com/tax_info.aspx

I'm sorry for my wording on the taxes in my earlier post, but it did make for good conversation

The taxes paid on gasoline are far more expensive than the taxes for CNG. Is this a better statement?

Everyone in Ut is paying 64 cents a gallon for cng and being charged just over $80 for fuel taxes for the year.. Is a bargan!!! at 64 cents a gallon this equals about 130 gallons of fuel at lets say 25 mpg equals 3250 miles everything driven after this is tax free as far as I'm concerned.

The average gas tax on a gallon of gasoline is 62 cents and if you drive 12,000 miles a year at 25 mpg = 480 gallons x .62 is $297 bucks a year in fuel tax.

If you fill up at home with a Fuelmaker you might be taxed in some states but not at all in others. You're not paying as much in taxes with CNG as you do with gasoline overall and the government would need to pass more laws to change this.

Lets look at gas station Sales tax for example on cng at $2 a gallon lets say it's 8% ( It's different everywhere just an example )sales tax is 16 cents a gallon at $4 for gasoline at 8% your paying double in sales tax or 32 cents a gallon. See how much more your now paying in sales tax alone and how much is saved with CNG and your traveling the same distance in the same car saving $$$ with CNG. The government is making a killing on inflation with sales tax on everything.

[camryman]

Re: Conspiracy Therory...well...

$4 a gallon for Alt fuels i have no Idea what point your trying to make... 18K for a conversion way too much... And the biggest cost on conversion is the CNg tank. Trying to approve a car that is not all ready EPA or Carb approved is pricey an is a government blockade to keep the little guy out of the business.

But Why do a conversions when you can buy a used cng car all ready converted or a new civic.. With FeD incentive $$$ And state rebate $$$ too

FYI a Fill fuelmaker is 4K not 6K. and you get $1000 back on your Fed taxes plus In California you get a grant from AQMD for another 2K so your cost is only about 1K.

Plus in utah you fill up for .64 cents a gallon at a station and do not need to spend money on a pump.

In UT I think you get $3000 off your state taxes when you register a CNG car that has never been registered in the state,.. Sell your Tahoe and buy a used cng Tahoe or even better a new civic that gets 38 MPG.

You need to do a little more research on CNG and the positive green eco impact plus the $$$$ savings. .64 cent to a $1 a gallon gas is really big savings over the almost $4 a gallon gasoline.

If a Tahoe gets 14 mpg epa combined and you drive a 100,000 miles for the life of the SUV in 5 to 10 years.... This would total 7142 gallons of fuel at $4 a gallon to keep the math simple thats $28,571 in gasoline cost vs $4570 dollars filling up on CNG at 64 cents a gallon in utah.

Also lets not forget all the oil changes on gasoline. Every 5K miles totals 20 times $30 bucks is another $600 in gasoline cost vs 20K mile oil changes on CNG for 5 times for a toal of $150 bucks. CNG is the way to go plus your not paying as much in total sales tax dollars to the government. Increasing your personal

A savings of $24,000 dollars over the life of the SUV by using CNG and also don't forget you also would be polluting over 50% less using CNG vs gasoline Thats why it's called the clean burning fuel.

The taxes for CNg in Utah at 85$ a year and I'll say 10 years = $850. Using gasoline the tax total to fill up is around 4500 and sales tax of another 2000 equals $6500 in taxes using gasoline.

I have no idea what your talking about with the whole jean $$$ tax analogy thing. I don't think you understood my prior e mail about how cng is cheaper on taxes paid on fuel vs gasoline which is a good thing and how its the best way to save $$$ and help the planet reduce global warming and clean the air.

[Mr_Soapbox]

Re: Conspiracy Therory...well...

I believe the Feds have actually changed the name of the Environmental Protection Agency to-- EIPA (e.g., the Energy Industry Protection Agency)

[camryman]

Re: Conspiracy Therory...well...

Thats for sure Mr Soapbox.... until policy changes after the next election!!!!!!