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Now wait a cotton (T.Boone) Picken minute!

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  • #16
    Re: Now wait a cotton (T.Boone) Picken minute!

    Originally posted by rtry9a View Post
    Andy is correct, sort of.
    The Midwest has plenty of wind to provide electricity to the rest of the US, but we have to greatly improve the transmission system/grid to allow power distribution to the rest of the country, and that requires a bit of enlightenment and action/funds from Congress that likely will not happen with the Dems in control..
    My reading of the situation is that neither party has done doodly squat about it. The greatest issue with the power grid is that it is not robust enough to handle the massive shifts of current from one part of the country to another in order to save a few bucks here and there. The issue of getting it into the grid is not very difficult, we would just need to build collector stations to jack up the voltage--like a reversed local distribution station.

    Originally posted by rtry9a View Post
    Nuclear plants could be more local, but they require a lot of cooling water to run which makes location more difficult. I doubt nuc's will be a factor for a decade or more, assuming Congress gets off its A$$ now..
    As stated before, I abjure myself from the whole nuclear power question.

    Originally posted by rtry9a View Post
    IMHO, the best technology for vehicles would be either a small gas motor or a plug in electrical system backed up by a fuel cell that can use any hydrogen source (ie, diesel/ gas/nat gas/ethanol) for fuel. Fuel cells generate electricity chemically with a catalyst, without combustion. No new hi-pressure hydrogen tanks or distribution infrastructure needed..
    Good idea: but it isn't here now, and it won't help us make the transition to fuel cells or hydrogen by breaking down the current paradigm of "burn petroleum or nothing." Also, PEMs catalyzing via Al-Ga or Pt have a fuel purity requirement that is horrendously high (10-12 Sigma) for a single feedstock, much less for multiple fuels. Think about the difficulties inherent in a gasoline-NG bifuel ICE. They are even worse for multi-feedstock FCs because the whole process takes place on such a small scale. It's kinda like integrated circuits versus vaccuum tubes. The chip may use a lot less power, but the tube can survive a lot more surge.

    I have read articles about reforming gasoline to provide hydrogen to ICEs. How's that for for a serious waste of usable energy???

    As for the high pressure requirements for either H2 or CH4, I still say that Adsorbed Natural Gas (ANG) is going to solve that whole issue and in pretty short order--2-5 years, maybe less. 500psi is a party favor for engineers.

    Originally posted by rtry9a View Post
    Pickens plan could easily backfire on him- an abundance of nat gas cars would create a big incentive for the independent gas stations/utilities to enter local markets and create a free trade situation to counter his city-monopolies. It would also create a demand/supply situation where home compressors might become cheap enough to consider.
    We can always hope can't we?
    I am on the East Coast and it's way past my bedtime. Y'all have a good night.

    Andy-Paul

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    • #17
      Re: Now wait a cotton (T.Boone) Picken minute!

      Hmmmm....

      If only we could bottle our farts! This could solve everything, we'd get rid of the stink and drive on REAL natural gas. lol

      Actually, I can't imagine the exhaust smell coming from that.

      Wind power is great, as long as we can provide a stable / cost effective way to store the energy generated thus the "on demand" thing would be solved. I don't know much about it but I'm a huge wind power fan, as well as solar. Anything to get the crisis solved and solved within the walls of our country and on our own soil!

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      • #18
        Re: Now wait a cotton (T.Boone) Picken minute!

        The reality is there is NO WAY to store vast amounts of energy. And making batteries is a big pollution problem just for hybrids. The cost for wind power is huge, and costs must come down. Nuclear can come online faster, and new re-processing methods reduce the most dangerous un=reusable waste to a dixie cup full. Also, a nation packed with windmills would kill billions of birds, and be noisy as heck, not to mention UGLY

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Now wait a cotton (T.Boone) Picken minute!

          I used to think as you do, however, the new generation of windmills are far superior to the older generators you refer to. Large blades turn slower and are not a significant danger to birds, and they are a lot more efficient than they used to be. Nuclear plants are far more expensive than wind turbines due to the safety standards and permitting costs/delays.

          Wind power (from large wind farms like we are discussing) is not stored; it is used on demand just like all of the rest of the electricity on the grid. It has the potential to be a much cheaper energy source than others when costs are amortized over its lifetime.

          My biggest concern is that the best location for wind farms (plains states) is also tornado country. Id guess windmills would not fare well through a tornado.

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          • #20
            Re: Now wait a cotton (T.Boone) Picken minute!

            It is time to throw out all of the politicians in Congress.

            Originally posted by Andy-Paul View Post
            My reading of the situation is that neither party has done doodly squat about it. The greatest issue with the power grid is that it is not robust enough to handle the massive shifts of current from one part of the country to another in order to save a few bucks here and there. The issue of getting it into the grid is not very difficult, we would just need to build collector stations to jack up the voltage--like a reversed local distribution station.

            I agree, but the distribution system will be expensive and take a lot of time to construct. We need to get started asap, and it needs to be prioritized.


            As for the high pressure requirements for either H2 or CH4, I still say that Adsorbed Natural Gas (ANG) is going to solve that whole issue and in pretty short order--2-5 years, maybe less. 500psi is a party favor for engineers.

            Hope you are correct- Im a bit more pessimistic about your time frame- it takes a lot of time and effort to bring a new (revolutionary) technology to market and to solve all the legal and manufacturing snags.

            It sure looks promising, but the tanks will need to be a bit bigger than the current crop are, and tank size is a major problem in a small vehicle. Im also curious about the absorbent's real expected lifetime.


            Andy-Paul

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Now wait a cotton (T.Boone) Picken minute!

              You are all, for the most part, missing the big picture here.
              There is no one magic replacement for gasoline, we need to develop EVERYTHING. Nuclear, Wind, Solar, and Geothermal. Those with short commutes will have electric cars, those with longer commutes will continue to use ICE's powered by biodiesel, CNG, propane, whatever is availaible. I really like hydrogen provided it is used as it's produced. Storing it at high pressure is ludicrous.
              "Gee there was a car accident, what happened?"
              "when forensics get here they will search for pieces at the edge of the crater and see who's car it was and who's missing"

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Now wait a cotton (T.Boone) Picken minute!

                So, if using hydrogen as it is produced is the only way it makes sense, what is the point of using hydrogen for anything? What do you envision the hydrogen process to be, and why?
                1997 Factory Crown Victoria w/ extended tanks ~~ Clunkerized!
                2000 Bi-Fuel Expedition --> ~~ Sold ~~ <--

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Now wait a cotton (T.Boone) Picken minute!

                  Originally posted by David Burklin View Post
                  /agree

                  TBP is going to get rich off the deal.... SO WHAT! end result is we'll still be better off, we'll have a better fueling infrastructure, we'll be less dependant upon OPEC, we'll be greener and another step away from fossil fuels.
                  +1

                  who cares why he's doin it, the effect is still the same.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Now wait a cotton (T.Boone) Picken minute!

                    A few links to some interesting brekthoughs in cars.
                    Too bad not may people are talking about them.

                    http://www.motorauthority.com/news/c...for-pre-order/

                    http://www.popularmechanics.com/auto...s/4251491.html

                    Thanks
                    Lon
                    Thanks
                    Lon

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Now wait a cotton (T.Boone) Picken minute!

                      T Boone Pickens is already richer than all but 117 people (in the US, I believe,) but he is the one making the upfront investment (667 GE turbines) and those aren't cheap.

                      Its not a given he will succeed, but if he does, he needs to at least recoup his initial investment.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Pickens our pockets!!!

                        Let's see:

                        Pickens, a career corporate raider and owner of Clean Energy Fuels Corp is asking California to sponsor/promote NG to the tune of $5,000,000,000 a la Proposition 10. (Queen Pelosi has invested in his company BTW - no wonder she doesn't want off-shore drilling). This basically will allow him to corner the market at taxpayer expense if it passes. Many of you don't have a problem with this?

                        This is nothing more than using taxpayer money to form a monopoly and effectively corner the market so he can rape the taxpayers. This is corporate welfare at it's WORST. I just can't believe some think this is ok. Amazing, truly AMAZING.

                        Please, please, please - take an economics course.

                        -Lurkin

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Pickens our pockets!!!

                          Originally posted by Ben Lurkin View Post
                          Let's see:

                          Pickens, a career corporate raider and owner of Clean Energy Fuels Corp is asking California to sponsor/promote NG to the tune of $5,000,000,000 a la Proposition 10. (Queen Pelosi has invested in his company BTW - no wonder she doesn't want off-shore drilling). This basically will allow him to corner the market at taxpayer expense if it passes. Many of you don't have a problem with this?

                          This is nothing more than using taxpayer money to form a monopoly and effectively corner the market so he can rape the taxpayers. This is corporate welfare at it's WORST. I just can't believe some think this is ok. Amazing, truly AMAZING.

                          Please, please, please - take an economics course.

                          -Lurkin
                          I assume "Ben Lurkin" is a nome de plume. If so, I appreciate the cleverness. If not, my apologies.

                          The big thing no one seems to knock on the Pickens' plan is his contention that the electricity generators will switch from natural gas to wind power. True, wind power will provide more power in an environmentally friendly way. However, that does not mean that the electric utilities that are currently using natural gas will stop using it. One great advantage of using natural gas to generate electricity is the ability to start and stop the generators on a daily basis to meet peak demand. Electric utilities will not simply abandon the use of their natural gas-powered generators because there are wind generators producing electricity. Generation of electricity with natural gas will continue long after T. Boone builds his windmills. He'll be selling natural gas to fuel cars and to power electrical generators. Nonetheless, I can't knock the guy for proposing a method to help relieve our dependence on foreign oil.
                          _____________________________________
                          '12 Blue Mist Metallic Civic Natural Gas; '03 Galapagos Green Civic GX; '07 Alabaster White Civic GX

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Pickens our pockets!!!

                            What I knock in the plan is that, if the plan made such great economic sense, then he should be able to do it without any legislation or taxpayer money. The problem is, it ISN'T profitable on it's face in a short enough timeframe, so he drafts this "Picken's Plan" to get a 'grassroots' effort going to let all of us help him pay for the initial capital investment. It's rediculous. But, unfortunatley, judging by the numbers of people here that seem to be supporting it, I have a strong feeling I will soon be building him some wind plants and CNG fueling stations for him to make a profit off of.
                            1997 Factory Crown Victoria w/ extended tanks ~~ Clunkerized!
                            2000 Bi-Fuel Expedition --> ~~ Sold ~~ <--

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Now wait a cotton (T.Boone) Picken minute!

                              TBP will make a killing so what? The same laws that allow TBP and Wal Mart to make money allow any of us to start a business. I would love to see an underdog come along with a better solution and poke Exxon in the eye. If TBP does the 'poking,' it may not be as sweet but we still stuck it to the man.

                              On Nuclear - I think if we could alleviate foreign dependencies with a discretionary amount of nuclear then I am fine with that. Keep in mind that I said discretionary - my hope and thought is to use nuclear as a stop-gap while innovation takes place allowing us to harness more efficiency out of existing and new methods. Wind, Solar, GeoThermal and CNG are great solutions we just need to learn how to waste less energy in the conversion process. I don't believe that any one fuel source has all the answers.

                              Wired magazine (take it with a grain of salt) had a great article some time ago comparing many of these same concepts, if I can find my copy I will post some of the better points.
                              Chad Nuesmeyer
                              '08 XTerra - V6 | 2 - 10 gge | www.ngvdriver.com

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Pickens our pockets!!!

                                Originally posted by CNGLO View Post
                                I assume "Ben Lurkin" is a nome de plume. If so, I appreciate the cleverness. If not, my apologies.

                                The big thing no one seems to knock on the Pickens' plan is his contention that the electricity generators will switch from natural gas to wind power. True, wind power will provide more power in an environmentally friendly way. However, that does not mean that the electric utilities that are currently using natural gas will stop using it. One great advantage of using natural gas to generate electricity is the ability to start and stop the generators on a daily basis to meet peak demand. Electric utilities will not simply abandon the use of their natural gas-powered generators because there are wind generators producing electricity. Generation of electricity with natural gas will continue long after T. Boone builds his windmills. He'll be selling natural gas to fuel cars and to power electrical generators. Nonetheless, I can't knock the guy for proposing a method to help relieve our dependence on foreign oil.

                                We should be using nukes for our electrical needs. Windmills, pardon the pun, blow!

                                Yeah, Ben Lurkin, is a nice play on words. Glad you like it.

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