Now wait a cotton (T.Boone) Picken minute!

[WellFedEd]

Trust Clean Energy to line their pockets.
[url]http://earth2tech.com/2008/07/29/la-times-knocks-off-t-boones-green-halo/

[mecklen]

Re: Now wait a cotton (T.Boone) Picken minute!

It is certainly a disappointment that Pickens hopes to make lots of money off of the Pickens Plan, but I think the important question is: would the plan work? That is, if we can make wind power produce 20% of the US's needs and use natural gas for most of the vehicles, then the plan works and the country would be better off.

Someone is going to make a lot of money from the plan. It would make me feel slightly better if it was not a current billionaire, but not much better.

The essential point is still can wind and CNG be made to do the job? I must admit, I think they can.

Cheers,

[David Burklin]

Re: Now wait a cotton (T.Boone) Picken minute!

/agree

TBP is going to get rich off the deal.... SO WHAT! end result is we'll still be better off, we'll have a better fueling infrastructure, we'll be less dependant upon OPEC, we'll be greener and another step away from fossil fuels.

TANSTAAFL (There ain't no such thing as a free lunch). I'd rather give TBP $2/gge than give sheik skruemerikuh $4/gallon for unleaded. I'd rather be greener in the process. I'd rather see america build a modern green power distribution system across the US that will someday provide power for our electric cars that replace the CNG relics (someday they will be).

We are presented with an opportunity here to begin paving the yellow brick road for our children and grand children. More people need to act and do it now.

[cnglee]

Re: Now wait a cotton (T.Boone) Picken minute!

The part of the plan that irks me is Californians shelling out big tax dollars to help truckers retrofit their rigs for CNG and then they could take them out of state. You know that's exactly what will happen.

[TheBundo]

Re: Now wait a cotton (T.Boone) Picken minute!

Windpower is a sink-hole, like ethanol, IMO, and way too unpredictable, and tends to blow the most when less power is needed, and calm down when more power is needed. Nuclear is the way to go, and a streamlining of the regs could mean new plants in little over 5 years. Many existing plants are already approved for more reactors.

[c2sox]

Re: Now wait a cotton (T.Boone) Picken minute!

Trust Clean Energy to line their pockets.

Well at least Pickens is doing something about alternative energy. I haven't noticed anyone else step up to the plate and take a bat at it?

Nuclear is the way to go, and a streamlining of the regs could mean new plants in little over 5 years. Many existing plants are already approved for more reactors.

I just don't feel all that comfortable with all that nuclear waste, but I agree it is an alternative.


We could all sit here and argue our all day till we're blue in the face, trash and bash each other in this forum. But you know what we ain't getting anything done. At least one person is doing something about it, what have you done besides driving an NGV?

[mecklen]

Re: Now wait a cotton (T.Boone) Picken minute!

Nuclear is the way to go

I've read a lot about nuclear power and waste management, in particular. There are real issues that have not been addressed and the consequences of a mistake are severe.

It seems to me that until we make a serious effort at safer alternatives we are not fulfilling our duties. A serious effort (to me) would be, say, 500,000 wind generators and 50 solar power plants. (There are 9,351 power plants in the US, http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/ipp/ipp00.pdf, page 16.)

I would like to reserve nuclear power as a last resort.

Cheers,

[CraziFuzzy]

Re: Now wait a cotton (T.Boone) Picken minute!

I'd like to put another strong vote in for nucelar power. Wind is nice as a supplement to the grid, but it's sporadic, and its non on-demand nature will become more and more of a problem as it starts to take more share of the grid. Nuclear is by far the cleanest and most efficient power source for Baseline loads. Combined-cycle gas turbines provide the best efficiency for variable (peak) loads. The wind works inbetween, in that whatever happens to be made by the wind at a given time will offset some of the needs from the gas turbines, but it can hardly take over peak loading duties.

[David Burklin]

Re: Now wait a cotton (T.Boone) Picken minute!

I agree, the key is to do something, rather than debate it for the next 10 years, like we've done for the last 10 (or longer).

Lets build wind generators, they won't hurt anything. Sure they cost money, but in the long run of x years, they will pay for themselves.

Nukes are an alternative, but present the storage of dead fuel as a serious issue. That's far from environmentally friendly... still, it will fill a huge gap in our energy needs. Keep it as clean as possible and recognize from day one that nuke is a stopgap until we can come up with better alternatives... don't be complacent and consider it our fix for the next 100, 200, or thousand years.

CNG is here now. With some government assistance, we could deploy a solid CNG infrastructure in a reasonable amount of time. Again, it's a fossil fuel and does not have an endless supply. It's renewable in theory at least from recycling waste gas, but we are burning a finite quantity that is in the ground. It'll be gone someday, just like the oil. It should carry us to the future better alternative though.

Ethanol is just plain stupid. Dump this idea back in the garbage can it came from.

Hydrogen cars? I don't know a lot about this, but it and electric seem to be the long term solution. I also saw something regarding Compressed Air vehicles... it looked interesting, but I don't know how viable it would be for most people. It definately would help out in warehouses/etc.

Nobody has the answers, but we can't debate it for years with no progress. A bad idea tried is better than nothing tried isn't it?

[ch4]

Re: Now wait a cotton (T.Boone) Picken minute!

I've said it before and once again I'll say it:

Nucs are old, 70's technology.

The Europeans are quickly moving from Nucs to Wind.
And to paraphrase Mr. Pickens, "Why is American always FOLLOWING the EU?"

[CraziFuzzy]

Re: Now wait a cotton (T.Boone) Picken minute!

well, actually, nuclear is 40's tech... windmills have been around hmmm.. centuries? How dare you suggest using such an OLD techology! seriously, that's hardly a real argument. I don't think we are 'following' the eu, we have had a completely different set of circumstances, and, as such, have followed a different path. If oil had been as expensive here as it has been for the last 20 years in europe, we would be in a different situation.

[Adrian]

Re: Now wait a cotton (T.Boone) Picken minute!

If oil had been as expensive here as it has been for the last 20 years in europe, we would be in a different situation.

I think you mean gasoline or diesel, since a barrel of oil, say Arab Medium costs as much in Europe as it does in the US. The reality that most don't want to face is that with oil above $130/barrel, the street prices of gasoline and diesel have only one way to go....up. In that respect we are following Europe since they already have the higher price for finished fuels.

[Andy-Paul]

Re: Now wait a cotton (T.Boone) Picken minute!

For the claim that wind does not usually run when one needs it, I beg to differ--*if* we build in the right place. The wind farm I saw out in western IA actually can run at 123% (you read that correctly neighbors, and I am quite sober) in the winter because the wind is so cold that the farmers just open the generator doors and let the wind cool the machinery. Also, electrical storage cells (not only batteries) are simultaneously getting better and less expensive.

I would take any way I could get to convert that @#$ cold wind to energy. Last time I was out in Milwaukee, WI (Jan 2007), the locals were talking about what a nice day it was--high of 0 deg F and *only* a 10 knot wind. Cue the "Simple Gifts" and raise that windmill, baby! I'll help--between the dates of 4/15 and 10/15......

As for wind power's intermittency, I believe that some grad student in climatology or meteorology has pretty well demonstrated via computer modeling based upon field sensors that yes, Virginia, the wind is always blowing somewhere on the plains.

Will the wind farms run at some number figured out by engineer/accountants to be the profit point for a fossil fuel (FF) power plant? Nope. Does a wind farm require the same cost in upkeep? No CPA will say yet, and the tax code has allowed utilities to list fuel in a different tax category, so that the "true" cost of a FF power plant cannot be compared with a wind farm. I check in with my neighbor's daughter (CPA Forensic) on this issue from time to time, and we're gaining on it, but we're not there yet--another 2-4 years. An unsung advantage of wind? Fixed fuel costs. Think about that the next time you're getting a tankful--yep, even one of those kind of tankfuls, Jetboatjohnny.

So, TBP wants to get richer. Let's just spit in the wind and get it over with.

I recuse myself from the nuclear option. For safest storage, we return the truly radioactive portion of the waste into rock and then bury it--a lot of energy to lock up a potentially useful energy resource. Doable? Probably, but there is an entire generation of ceramic engineers who have paid for that option with their lives (not least among them Thomas Hare: family man, philanthropist, one of my college advisors, and a good friend).

Any choice has a price, but not choosing will extract the highest price of all. Wind is obviously cheap. It has grown without government help and despite the discrepancies in the accountancy and tax codes. Same with NGVs. Now all we have to do is get over the last hill with them.

Andy-Paul

[rtry9a]

Re: Now wait a cotton (T.Boone) Picken minute!

Andy is correct, sort of.

The Midwest has plenty of wind to provide electricity to the rest of the US, but we have to greatly improve the transmission system/grid to allow power distribution to the rest of the country, and that requires a bit of enlightenment and action/funds from Congress that likely will not happen with the Dems in control.

Nuclear plants could be more local, but they require a lot of cooling water to run which makes location more difficult. I doubt nuc's will be a factor for a decade or more, assuming Congress gets off its A$$ now.

IMHO, the best technology for vehicles would be either a small gas motor or a plug in electrical system backed up by a fuel cell that can use any hydrogen source (ie, diesel/ gas/nat gas/ethanol) for fuel. Fuel cells generate electricity chemically with a catalyst, without combustion. No new hi-pressure hydrogen tanks or distribution infrastructure needed.

Pickens plan could easily backfire on him- an abundance of nat gas cars would create a big incentive for the independent gas stations/utilities to enter local markets and create a free trade situation to counter his city-monopolies. It would also create a demand/supply situation where home compressors might become cheap enough to consider.

[ch4]

Re: Now wait a cotton (T.Boone) Picken minute!

well, actually, nuclear is 40's tech... windmills have been around hmmm.. centuries? How dare you suggest using such an OLD techology! seriously, that's hardly a real argument. I don't think we are 'following' the eu, we have had a completely different set of circumstances, and, as such, have followed a different path. If oil had been as expensive here as it has been for the last 20 years in europe, we would be in a different situation.

"The world's first commercial nuclear power station, Calder Hall in Sellafield, England was opened in 1956 with an initial capacity of 50 MW (later 200 MW).[15][20] The first commercial nuclear generator to become operational in the United States was the Shippingport Reactor (Pennsylvania, December, 1957)."

Alright, 60, not 70. That's worse.

But mom and pop's windmill in "American Gothic" bears no resemblance to a modern electrical generating wind turbine. The tech is very new and proven.

The largest has
overall height of 198 m (650 ft) and a diameter of 126 meters (413 ft) and delivers up to 5 MW.

Please do not confuse people with old-man McSame think.