Looking 4 a Phill Station

[Grantgx08]

Hey there Curt,

Now that I have an approval for a Phill station I've learned my options are to lease or own one. What are the costs/prices etc to lease or to own? What are the requirements for leasing? Where can I locate a good installer at a reasonable price? Does Robertson in Palmdale or Thousand Oaks provide leasing options or purchase options? Must it all be paid at one time to purchase or is financing available?

TG -N.Hills

[TheBundo]

Re: Looking 4 a Phill Station

Leasing from Honda is about $103 per month in NorCal, less in SoCal. Here is a letter I received, with contact info, and a zip file with the forms

Hello,

Thank you for inquiring about Phill. Please find attached the necessary
forms that need to be completed before proceeding forward with a lease. I
have also attached two links that might answer some of your questions.
Below are the steps before leasing the Phill.

If you are in Southern California, your approximately monthly rate will be
$66.18, if you are in Northern California your rate will be approximately
$103.00. The rate is higher in Northern California because you don't
qualify for the $2,000.00 incentive that is only given if you are located
in Southern California.

For Southern California customers, you qualify for the $2,000 incentive and
you can also claim $1,000 of the unit in your 2009 taxes.

Southern California customers: The $2,000 will be deducted from the unit.
It's not a check that you will receive.

For Northern California customers, you qualify for the $1,000 that can be
claimed on your 2009 taxes.

If you are interested in the extended warranty, it will be an additional
$480.00 for the 4 year contract. It will be an addition of $10.00 a month.

Step 1. Fill out the attached form from So Cal Gas. They will tell you if
your "quality of gas" is okay. If it is they will send you a letter giving
you permission to install the unit. If you receive a decline letter give me
a call, and I will pass it on to our Environmental Attorney, who will
contact So Cal Gas directly.

Step2. With the acceptance letter from your gas company call FuelMaker at
1-866-697-4455. They will set up a time and date to have an installer come
out to your home and give you an estimate for the installation. This is an
out of pocket expense. You have the option of rolling over $1,000 of the
installation cost. If you decide to do that it will be an additional $23.83
a month. The site inspection is at no cost to you. The installer will test
the quality of gas, check the electrical, and locate the gas line. Once
completed the installer will determine a cost.

Step 3. Once the installer comes to you home and gives you the cost, you
can call me and set up the lease.

http://www.myphill.com/downloads.htm

http://www.fuelmaker.com/

FuelMaker: 1866-697-4455

(See attached file: Phill Customer Disclosure Notice.pdf)(See attached
file: Notice of Intent to Install a Natural Gas Vehicle Home Refueling
Appliance.pdf)

I hope the attached websites, and forms have helped with some of the
questions you might have. If not, please contact me at the number below.

Thank you,
Cristina Lomeli
Alternative Fuel Vehicles Department
Phill Marketing Specialist
American Honda Motor Co.,Inc.
1919 Torrance Blvd.
Torrance, CA 90501
Office (310) 781-4452
Fax (310) 224-6620

[ajgiorgi]

Re: Looking 4 a Phill Station

I wish the 2000 rebate was state wide. Maybe more people in the bay area would buy one.

[Grantgx08]

Re: Looking 4 a Phill Station

Thanks for the information. I contacted Christina and received an estimate of how much a lease would cost for my area - about $52/month for about 4 years. Now, I just need to have a contractor come out to provide an estimate for installation.
Prior to that I will determine if it will be worth while to invest now or later. Considering about $4600 to buy the unit minus the rebates of $2K and the $1K tax rebate/credit.

[Curtis]

Re: Looking 4 a Phill Station

The incentives are the only thing that makes the unit come close to penciling out. The next consideration is the installer. Get the bid/s before you sharpen your pencil.

To quote FM, the installers work for us, not you". That after I took it on myself to send multiple installers to each of my customers in the effort to get competitive bids. They didn't like it apparently. FM's point of view is that if you are getting a Phill to save money, you're doing it for the wrong reason. It's designed for the convenience factor... period. This was from Jeff Harju, who manages the Phill program. I spoke with him for a while at the Vegas show to try and get him to do something about what his installers are doing to their reputation in Calif. He wasn't particularly interested in the subject, based on his comment's that there were a few guy's out there, who were apparently beyond his control, that were giving them a black eye. His aspirations were to "have any licensed contractor be able to install them." No time line was proposed for that scenario.

In my opinion, a Phill makes sense if:
1) You drive somewhere in the neighborhood of 75 miles a day or less. Preferrably less.
2) Your installer is sane and reasonable with the bid.
3) Convenience is your sole reason to own it and your willing to pay for the convenience factor. (Rule 3 doesn't negate rules 1 & 2)
Best of luck.

[flmgrip]

Re: Looking 4 a Phill Station

can i get the extended warranty if i bought directly from phill ?

[CNGfamily]

Re: Looking 4 a Phill Station

can i get the extended warranty if i bought directly from phill ?

I think you need to purchase from a distributor... you may want to contact Phill or your local distributor directly

from the Phill site: http://www.myphill.com/purchase.htm

Phill is currently available for purchase in the US in select parts of California, Arizona, Colorado, Illiniois, Indiana, Michigan, Nevada, New Jersey, New York, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Utah, Washington, and Wisconsin. Those residing in these areas may:

Contact FuelMaker at 1-866-MY PHILL (697-4455) or send an email to [email protected]. Customers in California may also visit their local Honda GX dealer for leasing inquiries. For more information about Honda GX dealerships, please click here

IF YOU ARE INQUIRING FROM THE UNITED STATES, PLEASE READ THE PREQUALIFICATION QUESTIONS BELOW BEFORE CALLING!



Please have the answers to the following questions ready when you phone to purchase Phill:

Do you own, or are in the process of obtaining, a Natural Gas Vehicle? What kind is it?
Does your vehicle have a double check valve in the fuel receptacle? If you don't know please refer to the manufacturer or point of purchase.
What is your vehicle tank size and pressure (3600 psi / 3000 psi) ?
How many miles daily do you travel on average?
What kind of residence do you live in?
Do you plan to install Phill inside or outside of your garage?
If outdoors, do you require permission from a homeowner association? If so, do you have it?

[Curtis]

Re: Looking 4 a Phill Station

Currently the only way to get an extended warranty on the Phill is with a Lease through Honda. Christina is working the lease program now and can answer any questions you may have about this program, as well as the extended service agreement, which would cover the unit for the life of the 4 year lease.

There was only 10 purchase buy downs still available when I spoke to Phill Barocca at SCAQMD last, considerably more for leases. This program will not be available for Phill purchases for much longer unless they shift funds over from the lease program, as they've done in the past.

[Gary144]

Re: Looking 4 a Phill Station

Hi, I'm thinking of buying a GX and a home Phill station. Why do you recommend a Phill at home only if you drive 75 miles or less a day? I drive about 80 miles round trip to and from work. Is it because of the time it takes to refuel overnight? Or is it somehow not cost effective?

Also, I'm told more 2008 GXs are coming soon, but some dealers are selling well above MSRP. Do you recommend waiting for the 2009, or will it also be priced above MSRP?

Thanks!

[CNGfamily]

Re: Looking 4 a Phill Station

...Is it because of the time it takes to refuel overnight? Or is it somehow not cost effective?

Also, I'm told more 2008 GXs are coming soon, but some dealers are selling well above MSRP. Do you recommend waiting for the 2009, or will it also be priced above MSRP?

Thanks!

Phill only does about 0.4 EGG an hour; so you're right at Curtis' suggested cutoff. I suspect that time that is the main issue. E.g., it would take about 15 hours to fill an "empty" GX with 6 EGG. IMHO, cost is also an issue at some point because the Phill does cost more in the long term (at current prices the recurring cost for rebuilding Phill v.s. an FM2 is 2X)

As for waiting... I think you're going to have to pay over MSRP to get 2009 as well. I know I'm kicking myself for not upgrading my wife's 2000 GX earlier this year.

[Curtis]

Re: Looking 4 a Phill Station

Hi, I'm thinking of buying a GX and a home Phill station. Why do you recommend a Phill at home only if you drive 75 miles or less a day? I drive about 80 miles round trip to and from work. Is it because of the time it takes to refuel overnight? Or is it somehow not cost effective?

Also, I'm told more 2008 GXs are coming soon, but some dealers are selling well above MSRP. Do you recommend waiting for the 2009, or will it also be priced above MSRP?

Thanks!

cngfamily makes valid points, but the reason I say 75 miles per day (and that's not a hard number) is that the unit needs to be rebuile every 6000 hrs. That is somewhere between 90k mi-100k mi on the car. I have customers doing that in 3 years. At $2500 for deinstallation, shipping, rebuilding and reinstall, it makes it less economic in the long run than the larger unit, assuming you get the FM used.

I drive 25 miles a day and could go 10+ years between rebuilds, you can't. Fuelmaker doesn't recommend the unit for 100+ mi @ day drivers because they'll wear it out in 3-4 years. It can be rebuilt a total of 3 times, whereas the FM's can be rebuilt on site, for half the cost, indefinitely... and at the "Phill equivelant" of 8000 hrs, since it pumps over twice as fast (.42gge/hr vrs 1gge/hr) and can accept 2 hoses up to 25 ft long vrs the Phill's 10 ft hose.

GX owners tend to own very sharp pencils and have run the numbers every which way possible. Many can give you the return on investment numbers off the top of their head. Fuelmaker will tell you that VRA's are designed to only be for convenience and they don't intend for them to pencil out, nor do they apparently care.

You'll have to decide for yourself if the convenience factor makes it worthwhile for you. Depending on where you are, there may be incentives beyond the $1000 fed tax credit. This helps. There are no incentives on a used VRA, but the return comes over time.

[Gary144]

Re: Looking 4 a Phill Station

Thanks. This brings up another question - am I correct in the impression that the filling stations can fill the tank a lot faster? I remember reading a description that a fill station fills a tank in about a minute? I live (and also work) not far from a station, so with your post, now I'm thinking maybe I'm better off just filling up at a station, or at least waiting a few months after I get the GX to decide whether to purchase a Phill or not. I know the fill stations appear to be about 20% higher cost than Phill, so maybe a mix of both is the solution for me . . . ? Seems tough to calculate at this point.

[Curtis]

Re: Looking 4 a Phill Station

Many of my high mileage commuters mix home refueling with public refueling to take the load off the Phill, thereby extending it's life. It sounds like it may work for you.

[kblock108]

Re: Looking 4 a Phill Station

Curt, as far as the financial aspect goes, is it better to purchase a brand new one or purchase a used one for less? thanks

[Curtis]

Re: Looking 4 a Phill Station

Tough question, and one that depends on a number of factors. Things like where you live and the incentives in your area can have a bearing on that answer. The other factor would be what you might be able to get a used cng vehicle for, as well as what you got. Some used vehicles can be problematic, or have specific areas of concern, such as compuvalves on the Fords, CVT trannys on the GX and the list goes on.

A year ago you could pick up a used cng vehicle very reasonably. These days... not so reasonable, and if it has expensive problems...
If gas prices continue to climb, and they will, demand for ngv's will only climb proportionately. Anyone that thinks the current respit in oil prices is a permanent situation is delusional. People may be breating a bit easier, although I wouldn't call (barely) sub-$4.00/gal gas any form of relief. We were at $2.87 this time last year... man have the oil companies got us programmed.

So I guess the answer is, work the math. Figure your incentives on a new car, watch the selling prices of used. Anything less than about $5k in difference could be eaten away by unexpected repairs so I would call that a wash. If it's not worth the difference to take a gamble on used... don't. Although, you may have a difficult time locating a new one due to limited availability. As you see, there's no easy answer to this delima. I'm sure the group will now add their $.02 worth and help you make a decision... or not.