technical information

[smartineau]

Curt -- After talking to some other members with the same frustrations, we decided to ask you personally for help & I am elected. These questions are directly for you as the cng expert. Please advise!
Is there a source for information on cng for a technician?
I have been looking for information & it is almost unavailable. I can go online (iATN, Identifix, factory websites, AllData, Mitchell, ARRC) and find wiring diagrams for any manufacturer, specifications, waveforms, discription and operation, component testing values etc. For cng not even a wiring diagram?
A good techncian bases decisions on information. What is the average burn time for cng (I am guessing 2-2.5ms) and how much does compression change burn time i/e (8 to 1 vs 11 to 1). If a system has a knock sensor that will allow timing to advance until the knock sensor retards it, does it need a special calibration for a higher octane slower burning fuel? Does the HO2S read differently for cng? If O2 voltage is in relation to unburned oxygen it seems like it should be the same. Do you need a wide band sensor, or is a Toyota type fuel sensor be better? If I am already spending 8k for cng, why not go another 3k and have the compression more closely matched to cng specifications for performance and power. If gasoline engines run 8.5 to 1 compression and cng 13 to 1, would it be prudent to build an engine at 10.5 to 1 and run premium gasoline? How does cng react to an older turbocharged vehicle or turbocharges in general? What would be the best compression vs boost pressure be? If an emission station measures grams per mile in a tailpipe sample and the monitors are set why would they reject the vehicle? If a vehicle meets emission standards for HC, CO, & NoX why would they reject it because there is not a sticker on it? What about converting older carbureted vehicles or OBDI systems? Do they need a certified kit?
I just talked to Baytech and their kits are for GM but they have no tanks, tank manufacturers provide no price list. It seems that if we can inexpensivly manufacture tanks for acetylene that can be dropped, thrown around, and bounce around in the back of trucks all across America, we should be able to manufacture cng tanks for a reasonable amount. I live in the gas fields and personally know some of the pipeline welders & they laugh about the tank situation and "how difficult" it is to weld a 1/2 inch thick metal tank!
I have been checking on-line information and reading about cng for several months and I have come to the conclusion that this is a secret society --- widely talked about without any real information being made available. Even the cng chat line offers no real information for a technician, the closest thing I have seen is the answer to a direct question about a Galelio kit & the answer "see if it is certified" and then immediatly following, we are dropping this as our agreement is to discuss certified systems only, but there was no other discussion! When I asked a direct question on cng chat about the best compression for a cng engine I received one reply from another new member looking for the same type of information I am, not even one answer from the regular cng members.
I am working right now to attend the required training for installation and tank inspection. I am ASE master certified in Auto & Truck, master Gasoline and Diesel engine machinist, Hunter master certified, FIRST and EDGE certified, LT1, LT2., plus Ford and Lincoln certification. I am serious about locating information and I want to do the job right. I have talked to IMPCO, TEECO, Galelio, Baytech, and ECO. They all give a minimum amount of information, charge the maximum amount of money and we still have to go to India for tanks? This whole cng thing just does not make any sense.
Please provide me with some avenues for specification, diagrams, procedures, equipment, etc.
Thank You
Stan M.

[Curtis]

Re: technical information

First of all, it concerns me that someone has finally figured out that we have a secret society... So unless you have the secret decoder ring, know the secret handshake and can recite the secret credo... I could tell you what you want to know but would then have to hunt you down and kill you.....

I'm honored that you've mistaken me for a cng expert. That would place me among the ranks of TGTTom, Murphy and a few others who reside here on the group. I am in fact a Civic GX expert who has been doing this long enough to have accumulated a lot of (otherwise useless) information that comes in handy from time to time.

How about I give you what I know.
To access the secret Honda tech info, go to www.techinfo.honda.com .
That is the same info that my techs pull off of the Honda Interactive network when they work on a Honda/Acura car. For you it would be a subscription site, but it is the secret site for Honda. My service writers didn't even know about it... too bad I had to kill them... no decoder ring.

As far as training, I am almost sure that ASE has a cng certification program out there somewhere. Contact them to find out.

As far as tech info for other brands, I go to EBay and search "CNG" regularly, and regularly there is someone on there selling cng tech manuals from Ford, GM, etc. This would save you a few bucks over purchasing them new from Helm Inc at (800) 782-4356, www.helminc.com.

I would put in some phone time with Tom from Tulsa Gas Technologies (TGTTom) and Murphy (CNGMotors), perhaps PM them through the group to determine if they have a decoder ring or not.

Otherwise, not being a tech myself, I don't know what I can give you. Some of these guys can turn you on to a site here, and a secret handshake there, and eventually you have enough info to get busy doing cng.

As far as cng cylinders, there are many manufacturers, and several companies gearing up for production of new offerings. Lincoln Composits comes to mind. There are a couple of people here that have mentioned that they are affiliated with companies that make cylinders. I think CNGMike was one such person here. If so, join in Mike and help keep this gentleman from having to convert his Dollar's to Rupee's.

If you have application's for used tank's, there's always EBay, Craig's list and other auction sources. Prices vary depending on tank type from
Type I through Type IV, with Type I being all metal and the cheapest. Honda uses a Type III tank if I recall, and a few applications may call for the Type IV's, which are fairly pricey.

That's the genious of this group; none of us are as smart as all of us. If you can figure out this little puzzle by networking with members of the group, you can become the next CNG Expert, maybe even write a book and sell secret decoder rings as an aside.

[Timon]

Re: technical information

Honda really needs to change the colors on the site. Red and black on blue is very hard on the eyes

[smartineau]

Re: technical information

Thank you & I do consider you an expert!
I have been on line for almost 2 months trying to locate technical information, diagrams etc.
For anyone interested --- I am willing to provide some aftermarket specifications. How do you suggest I do that?
I have three cng vehicles lined up to do some testing on OBDI, OBDII, both four cylinder and v8, one baytech system, one that I have not identified, and one that I have not even seen yet. I propose to run them on gasoline & then cng. I will run lab scope patterns on O2, injector on time, burn time, KV firing, timing advance at different rpm and loads etc. I will also track 5 gas using a dyno at different loads and speeds, and engine temperature. For aftermarket technicians this is excellent information for diagnosis. I also plan to track communication between the pcm and the emulator for diagnosis of systems, although most of the CAN system is too fast & changes priorities according to needs to be usable. Using three lab scopes to track information is interesting but no concrete theory of information change yet. I have built wiring diagrams from disassembling and tracing wires on one system (OBDI) and plan to diagram others when in the shop. It will take me several months, but I plan to check HP, torque, and emissions on a GM v8 with different compression ratios and possibly different camshafts. At this point my favorite cam for cng has the following specifications ---
at .006 lift -- Intake valve timing Intake 24 BTDC open, 56 ABDC close
Exhaust valve 64 BBDC open, 16 ATDC close
The intake centerline is 106 degrees but on some head designs will actually run better at 108 degree centerline. Degreeing the camshaft will inprove performance and appears to be more critical on cng.
I am in the process of (scheduling) a two day installation certification class and a one day cng tank inspection class for master technians. I will be using national trainers (located on a mnational forum). If there are any peeople wanting to be installers and receive certification I intend to sponsor the two class in Utah.
I currently am working on two cng vehicles with drivability problems & was trying to take the lazy way and use someone elses knowledge to set a baseline. I have been trying to get one repair part for five weeks & have called four manufacturers, and several installers. Most installation places I contacted will not sell you anything unless you go their business and let them install it. I am scheduled next month for cng specific training. \
I am trying to learn the password and handshake to order parts & develop relations with foreign countries so I can order the kit from one country and the tank form another. If I ever locate the secret wiring diagrams that even the owners do not seem to have I will share -- if I could only speak their language!
Thanks for the reply

[smartineau]

Re: technical information

Honda really needs to change the colors on the site. Red and black on blue is very hard on the eyes

It appears that I double posted again without realizing it! I apologize & at this point will refrain from posting anything more unless requested.
I dont really think this is the chat group I should be involved with as my questions receive no response and do not seem to fit anywhere. If you have suggestions on where to send information about the cng installation and tank inspection classes I hope to sponsor, please advise.
Thank You
Stan M.

[CNGolf?]

Re: technical information

Hi!

In Germany everything is done to prevent people from working on high-pressure devices as long as they have not proved their knowledge about it. Converted cars have to be presented to the experts of TUeV and similar organisations, which have the special knowledge to see, whether a kit is installed according to the "common rules", without their OK the car must not be used in public.

To prevent people from do-it-yourself makes it necessary to keep knowledge about the car kits in restricted areas.

Bye!
CNGolf²

Something to add:
We don't only use cng in Germany, but there are as well cars which burn a fluid mixture of propan and butan (gpl or lpg) on lower pressure (10 bar). There have some guys died because they tried to get cng in their lpg-tanks. One more reason not to sell car-kits to anybody. CNGolf²

[Curtis]

Re: technical information

I suspect that until you are formally trained in cng it's going to be hard, if not imposssible to open many of the doors you seek to enter. A lot of the American made stuff os basically obsolete as Ford & GM aren't making it anymore and have little, if any, service for it. That's why I suggest watching EBay and snagging some of the out-of-print, or at least out of circulation manuals that pop up there. Reading a couple of those would probably answer a lot of your questions, even if they weren't specific to the vehicle you were working on. Specialized tools may be required that are not easily accessible for cars that are out of production.

Hopefully the Honda site I gave you will help with the Honda's you run into, but I have no password or decoder rings for the other manufacturers. Call Tom at TGT, he may be a wealth of info.

[cngmike]

Re: technical information

I contacted all of the Cylinder companies with a presence in the US. None of the sell to the public. The people that I know that well used inspected tanks are all in Southern Ca. http://holdenfleetservices.com/index.html, Terry told me that he will do work on privet vehicles but his Business is not set up like a retail facility. Alternate Fuel Technologies in Huntington Beach 17092 Gothard St Huntington Beach, CA 92647 (714) 842-3017, Bruce has been in this business longer than any one I know he also has more business than he can do. http://afvfleetservice.com/ Fontana California, I know Paul form his Hoke days. They sell every thing you could need for CNG and LNG Vehicles. http://www.emifuel.com/ I have been working with Enviromech Industries for the last couple of months on installing DOT compliant cylinders on some of our trucks. Don told me that they sometimes have used cylinders. I have some cylinder size charts i want to post but I am computer challenged. Timone can you give me some help!!!

http://www.afvi.org/services.html is a group I have done a lot of training with, Leo is a true expert. In Ca. we have a Community Collage system most of which have an Alt fuels training program Rio Hondo has a huge one. but other ones that come to mind are Long Beach and Collage of the Desert.

[neongreen]

Re: technical information

CNGolf in response to your post, it seems that TÜV wants to stop all modification of vehicles. Germany is very very restrictive in that sense when compared to the US.

[Timon]

Re: technical information

I have some cylinder size charts i want to post but I am computer challenged. Timon can you give me some help!!!

What is it that you want to post?

[neongreen]

Re: technical information

Stan, I found a book with a lot of good general CNG conversion info at the BYU library and checked it out. It is called "Natural Gas Vehicles - System Integration and Service" and was written by National Alternative Fuels Training Program at West Virginia University, published by Delmar Publishers. The library call number is TL228.n38 1996 or 629.22"043--dc21 (dewey decimal I think). I am reading it right now and it has some good info and references some other sources. It is a little out of date since it is 12 years old, but it is still quite helpful.

[maxman]

Re: technical information

Neongreen: I have seen the book you mentioned. I believe several months ago I saw it on Amazon, but didn't buy it. Later, when I checked, it was out of print

Smartineau: I know what you mean. I think the reason I didn't answer was your understanding was way above my head. I have searched and searched, also. It may be something like carpet installing. Carpet installing is relatively simple, yet there was very little information out there when I checked. Because the general acceptance of CNG is still somewhat in the early stages, there is probably a lot being held close the the vest. A good example of this is the coalescent filter prices. The same filter from the same vendor has a price variance of over $100 dollars from different sources.
I share your frustration in being able to get information. I would guess propane may have been somewhat like this in the early stages, just my guess.
I have checked at local places for training, but have not found a lot, but will keep trying. I'm somewhat mechanically inclined, though not the professional it appears you are.
Maybe we could have a "How to section" similar to the one on the Isuzupup forum. However, because of the somewhat danger associated with natural gas, especially the high pressures involved there are two reasons I see why information may not be forth coming.
First, in our litigation prone society, many manufacturers may not be too excited about possible liability issues.
Second, the lack of knowledge can lead to quite high profitability on the part of those with the secret decoder rings. I guess it could be compared to what seems quite expensive transmission repairs. Very mysterious to almost everyone, and somewhat even to those who mechanically inclined, but are hard pressed for information. I am not saying that everyone is greedy, and I am sure there are those who would like to get a good return on their currently specialized knowledge.
Let's just keep looking and passing information on. Hopefully, that is what this forum is about.
Max

[Idarusskie]

Re: technical information

I was at work today looking at some breathing airlines. This a unusual installation because it is a nuke place that has excavation actives. Its has been described as an open pit plutonium mine. Really its a waste pit where they are retrieving waste. The bottom line is they have a bank of cylinders with breathing air on board for the excavator operator to breath. They were filling it today with a detailed procedure where they were timing the fill rate and check pressures. There were gages and valves at different points around the system. The system was 4500 psi.

It occurred to me that technicians might benefit from setting up a mock up using air instead of CNG. The systems will seem less magical once you see ( from the gages) what is happening around the system.