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Lawsuits re: EPA certification requirement (inspections, tax credits, etc.)

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  • #31
    Re: Lawsuits re: EPA certification requirement (inspections, tax credits, etc.)

    Ethical?

    It would appear the grey ethics are from those who say that EPA certification is required by law. Even the EPA's own documents state that EPA certification only eliminates "potential liability for tampering". Accordingly, unethical would be stating that someone has violated the law when in fact they have done nothing illegal. It looks to me like EPA has enforced its standards here in Utah. According to the EPA website they have prosecuted several automobile repair shops for releasing refrigerant into the air, and allowing chemicals into the ground water etc. EPA has not been shy about prosecuting under the clean air act here in Utah. As a result, it would appear that EPA has not prosecuted a clean fuel conversion because it is simply not illegal.

    Apparently FuelTek, and Lancer Automotive believe that federal law requires that an EPA certified Kit be installed or it is tampering. Do they have a case that establishes such a law, because it is noticeably absent from the United States Code, the Utah Code, the Code of Federal Regulations, and the Utah Administrative Code?

    Moreover, the idea that a kit which is certified by EPA initially and then expires (which is the case with many technocarb kits) becomes tampering upon expiration seems particularly absurd. It is missing the sticker thus it is tampering, good luck with convincing a judge or a jury that is the case.

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    • #32
      Kim thanks for a breathe of fresh air......

      Just because someone says something over and over does not make it true... I haven't heard one proponent of "EPA" vehicles show me anything definitive about enforcement. Most all "EPA" proponents have a $$$$ motive behind their beliefs. It always seemed illogical that "EPA" would crack down on a Clean Vehicle no matter what it burned as a fuel. That being said I personally have nothing against the EPA, EPA Converted Vehicles or shops who Convert EPA CNG Vehicles, its when they use the "EPA" as a club to bring the rest of the CNG community into submission that I have a problem.
      Below is an article I am starting about CNG I hope this helps to explain how I feel, Jim

      According to IANGV (International Association for Natural Gas Vehicles) the US is ranked 7th in total NGV’s (Natural Gas Vehicles) in the world with 146,876 total. Here are the top 7..

      1) Argentina with 1,650,000
      2) Pakistan with 1,550,000
      3) Brazil with 1,425,513
      4) Italy with 432,600
      5) India with 334,820
      6) Iran with 263,882
      7) United States with 146,876

      While being 7th in the world may make us feel good about ourselves lets look at other statistics…..
      In % of Total Vehicles that are now NGV’s we rank #32 behind the top 7 at .00623%.....this means that in the US we have 1 NGV for every 1,461,846 vehicles. Over the last year by converting 4000 new NGV’s in Utah we increased the total number of NGV’s in the US by 3.6% lets not throw that increase under the bus so to speak.

      1) Bangladesh Total 293472 % of NGV’s 27.3%
      2) Armenia Total 6217069 % of NGV’s 24.9%
      3) Pakistan Total 327477 % of NGV’s 24.9%
      4) Iran Total 1102720 % of NGV’s 23.9%
      5) Argentina Total 7608744 % of NGV’s 21.7%
      6) Bolivia Total 47563 % of NGV’s 13.6%
      7) Colombia Total 1238216 % of NGV’s 16.4%
      32) United States Total 234646314 % of NGV’s .00623%??

      The United States has 234,646,314 Vehicles total which makes us #1 in that respect but as you can see we fall way behind the rest of the world when it comes to NGV Conversions.
      Last edited by younkin; 02-22-2009, 04:16 PM.
      Jim Younkin
      www.younkincng.com

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      • #33
        Re: Lawsuits re: EPA certification requirement (inspections, tax credits, etc.)

        Originally posted by kim1 View Post
        Ethical?
        Moreover, the idea that a kit which is certified by EPA initially and then expires (which is the case with many technocarb kits) becomes tampering upon expiration seems particularly absurd. It is missing the sticker thus it is tampering, good luck with convincing a judge or a jury that is the case.
        This part of the EPA CNG kit certification rules makes it clear for anyone that it is the EPA that is acting unethically. If anything can be called shady....then this is it. The only logical purpose behind this rule is either to extort money or to hamper CNG growth. I can't believe that any reasonable logical person would think otherwise.
        Adrian

        Navy 2008 Civic GX (wife's)
        Silver 2012 Toyota Prius
        Grey 2012 Civic Natural Gas (mine)

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        • #34
          Re: Lawsuits re: EPA certification requirement (inspections, tax credits, etc.)

          I am sure that by now everyone is aware that Judge Toomey issued an injunction and declared the State Safety Inspection rules concerning EPA certification void. We also attended the DEQ Board meeting last week. we talked about the request for Agency action. I expect to have a scheduling order from them fairly soon. I will post the time-line as soon as I receive it. Hopefully it goes well (I have confidence it will) and there will be some folks out there entitled to a tax credit.

          Jack

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          • #35
            Re: Lawsuits re: EPA certification requirement (inspections, tax credits, etc.)

            My credit request goes in as soon as I hear something positive. Thanks for your efforts Jack.

            Jim

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            • #36
              Re: Lawsuits re: EPA certification requirement (inspections, tax credits, etc.)

              Originally posted by Ultrajim View Post
              My credit request goes in as soon as I hear something positive. Thanks for your efforts Jack.

              Jim
              Ultrajim,

              The Tax Credit must be taken in the year that you purchased your vehicle or had the conversion done. Then you are able to roll it over for up to 5 years. If you purchased your vehicle (or had it converted) in 2008, then you must claim the tax credit on your 2008 return. I guess you still have time to file.
              You can not purchase (or convert) your vehicle in 2008 and then claim the tax credit for 2009. If you submit your "credit request" make sure that it is for tax year 2008.
              Jared.
              Mountain Green, Utah
              2003 CNG Cavalier
              2003 CNG Silverado 2500HD

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              • #37
                Re: Lawsuits re: EPA certification requirement (inspections, tax credits, etc.)

                yeah, but right now you will not get it, if the lawsuit decides that you should be able to get the tax credit you were not allowed to get, I would assume they will let all who were deined refile, that's the logical route.

                Why assume that since we aren't getting the tax credit in the year we purchased our vehicles (which is what the lawsuit argues) that we won't get them if they rule that we should have!!??
                2000 Escalade (option 3 conversion) FOR SALE
                2004 F150 XLT (OEM conversion)
                2000 Camry (Awesome Car!!)

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                • #38
                  Re: Lawsuits re: EPA certification requirement (inspections, tax credits, etc.)

                  I'm one of the lawyers on Jack's case and we're not tax lawyers or accountants. But presumably if the action against DEQ on the tax credit issue is successful, you should be able to file an amended return. That, of course, would be for the year you incurred the expense of the conversion.

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                  • #39
                    Re: Lawsuits re: EPA certification requirement (inspections, tax credits, etc.)

                    I do understand about taking the credit the year you purchased the vehicle. I did have the conversion done in 2008, but didn't file because I knew it would be turned down. However, I had planned on filing an amended return if Jack's efforts are positive. I still have time since I haven't filed my 2008 state taxes yet. The paperwork is filled out and waiting.

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