Bear Creek SUV. Any feedback?

[Cleancaterer]

I went and looked at a 2004 Cavalier at Bear Creek SUV in Heber, Utah this evening. It was being Sold at TWICE the blue book of the Gas version. $16,900 for a car that felt to me like driving a Yugo, seemed a little steep.
Bill, the sales man told me that it was eligable for the full Utah tax credit
($3,000) because it had the EPA sticker (wrong?). He also had a Landrover (gas), I asked him if it was CNG, he said no, we're Going to Convert it. So, I asked him if he had an EPA conversion for it, he said no, we're just converting it. I'm not going to buy the Cavalier. He did have a sweet GX
(2003 with 9,500 miles @ $19,900) But to much and I need one duel fuel for long trips. Used salemen don't Die they just move to the CNG marketplace.

[Highmarker]

Re: Bear Creek SUV. Any feedback?

The 2004 Cavalier is eligable for the Utah Tax Credit because it is an OEM conversion. The total tax credit is about $2,950. There is no EPA sticker on CNG vehicles. I believe he is referring to the blue diamond CNG sticker that is mandated under NFPA 52 (National Fire Protection Association). All his prices on reflective of the current market in Utah (just look on KSL.com). It seems that there is no CNG vehicle under $10k these days. Even if it is over 10 years old.

I have been looking for a second CNG vehicle (perferrably a SUV), but I am not paying a ridiculous amount for it. Therefore, I have not got one yet. Hopefully, the market will reach a pinch point (either with gasoline prices going down or with natrual gas prices going up a little), and the prices of these used CNG vehicles will go down.

I would never pay $20k for a used GX, if you wait and find the right one, you can get a new one for that (with the federal and state tax credits).

I don't believe that the Landrover is an EPA certified conversion. As far as Bear Creek SUV is concerned, I have not dealt with them. However, they seem to be just like every other used CNG dealership in this state - just jumping on the CNG bandwagon and then probably jumping off when it dies. A lot of these used CNG dealerships do not do their homework when it comes to used CNG vehicles. For example answering questions regarding the following:

Ford Compuvalves, Chevy - Impco CNG parts, Certified cylinder inspections, etc.

There are dealerships that have been selling CNG vehicles for years and are really knowledgeable. CNGMotors, Best Auto Sales, and Morris just to name a few. These dealearships are in the used CNG car sale business because of CNG and not like all the other ones that are selling CNG vehicles becasue they are a used car dealership. In other words, all that CNGMotors, Best Auto Sales, and Morris sale are CNG vehicles.

[mecklen]

Re: Bear Creek SUV. Any feedback?

I would never pay $20k for a used GX, if you wait and find the right one, you can get a new one for that (with the federal and state tax credits).

I am not a savvy car buyer (since I tend to do it once every 10 years or so), but I bought my '07 GX new in October. When I looked at the GX (Ken Garff, downtown, of course), the sticker price was about $25,500 and that's what I paid. Right next to the new GX was a used '05 Civic with 60,000 miles on it selling for $19,000.

There is no doubt that one can do much better when buying a used car, but it seems to me that $20,000 for a low miles, in good shape, '03 doesn't sound (to my untrained ear) like you're being ripped off.

Cheers,

[freedml]

Re: Bear Creek SUV. Any feedback?

So, don't buy it. And don't complain. You didn't spend any money, and they didn't make any money (yet).

[ch4]

Re: Bear Creek SUV. Any feedback?

So, don't buy it. And don't complain. You didn't spend any money, and they didn't make any money (yet).

Wait a minute... Aren't we in America - land of the Complaint.
Don't tread on my right to complain - reasonable or not.

The guy called the blue CNG decal EPA?
Said you'd get 3k, but you need to get the VIN to verify it's never been taken before in UT.
And he's illegally converting Rovers.

Yeah. I'm complaining.

[Cleancaterer]

Re: Bear Creek SUV. Any feedback?

Wait a minute... Aren't we in America - land of the Complaint.
Don't tread on my right to complain - reasonable or not.

The guy called the blue CNG decal EPA?
Said you'd get 3k, but you need to get the VIN to verify it's never been taken before in UT.
And he's illegally converting Rovers.

Yeah. I'm complaining.

The "EPA Sticker" was on the under side of the hood, stating the car was CNG and had the tanks expairation date.

[karlhafen]

Re: Bear Creek SUV. Any feedback?

For what its worth, I met Bill and spent a week as a fellow student at the Light Duty Natural Gas Vehicles and Cylinder Inspection Training put on by Utah Clean Cities. I am not vouching for him but he seemed like a pretty straight up guy to me. I think he specializes in extra clean and nice cars and prices them at what the market will pay.

[Highmarker]

Re: Bear Creek SUV. Any feedback?

karlhafen,

I gave the lunch-in presentation on Thursday in that training (about NGV2-2007 specifications and CNG tank manufacturing). I met Bill as well. I am not trying to slander him or his business in any way, quite the contrary. I think it has been said in this thread before "Aren't we in America". The great beauty of this country is it is a free market. If the market is able to bear a 10 year old car to be sold for $10k or more, than so be it. I am just voicing my opinion that I am not going to pay that much for a 10 year old car. Whether it be from Bear Creek SUV or any other CNG car dealership.

The majority of CNG dealerships that I have spoken to don't know CNG from a hole in the ground. Maybe Bear Creek SUV is different than the majority of used CNG dealerships. Isn't that the purpose of this thread, to find out their credentials?

[freedml]

Re: Bear Creek SUV. Any feedback?

The cars are likely to go for about the same amount of money whether it's a dealer, private party or an auction. When I bought my GXs the info was hard to bring to 'the market.' But now it's easy with eBay and online auctions. It sounds like you don't really care where you buy the car as long as the price is low.

[UtahGasBill]

Re: Bear Creek SUV. Any feedback?

Dear Caterer -

My name is Bill Saks. I am the owner of Bear Creek SUV and yes, I am a salesman for my business as well. I have been in the automobile business for 12 years. In all that time, not once have I seen someone use my name within the context of a negative comment on the internet. Thank you for being the first.

The one question I would ask you is, why, after you saw what I was asking for my vehicles (assuming you saw my website), did you make the trip to my dealership to view (as you state) overly priced vehicles, only to turn around and post a negative comment regarding the price?

Thank you to the others on the site that quickly pointed out that the 2004 Cavalier does, indeed qualify for the Utah state tax credit.

You also mentioned in your post that I told you that I was going to convert my personal vehicle, a Land Rover to natural gas. I am well aware that it would not be an EPA conversion and we would file all of the proper paperwork with the EPA to exempt the vehicle if we conducted the testing nesessary to achieve EPA status. This was never part of our conversation, nor did I feel it needed to be - you were not there to buy the Land Rover.

We take GREAT pride at what we do here at Bear Creek and always will. Quality is so important. At the end of the day, we are all just a bunch of car dealers and installers trying to make a living in an industry that lothes what we do. To the public we are nothing but a bunch of lying snake oil salesmen. We are not all like that and know of many quality, honest car guys here in Utah.

When all is said and done, all we have to offer that sets us apart from anyone else is great customer service. If you ever come back on my lot again, you will once again be treated with the respect and courtesy deserving of anyone taking the time out of their day to give me a shot at earning their business. Sorry it did not work out with my shop and I hope you do end up with the car you are searching for.

Oh, and by the way, you were right!!! The Civic was sweet, the only one like it with those miles in the USA and it did sell to someone who was thrilled to pay $19,900 for it and two others that would have purchased it if he didn't.

So it goes.

All the Best,

Bill Saks
Bear Creek SUV

[2003GX]

Re: Bear Creek SUV. Any feedback?

Hey Bill..nice to see you on here.

I am the one who bought that beautiful Civic. A 5 year old car with 9,600 miles on it. It's the craziest thing to take a 2003GX in for it's "10,000 mile service".

Bill canceled other obligations to meet with me when it was convenient for me (he is about an hour away from me) and I am appreciative of his help, attitude, and honesty in my transaction with him.

I wouldn't hesitate buying my next car from him.

[Highmarker]

Re: Bear Creek SUV. Any feedback?

Once again...happy customers using CNGChat.com!

[John Mitton]

Welcome!

Hi Bill,

As with Highmarker I also met up with you at the training class where I gave a presentation a few weeks ago. Happy to see you here at CNGchat and hope all goes well with your business.

[krnorth]

Re: Bear Creek SUV. Any feedback?

Highmarker: Well said.

Also, anyone who converts using a non EPA-certified kit is HIGHLY unlikely to take the time to get through the red tape and expense to make it EPA cerified (in my opinion).

However that being said, as I have said before and I'll say it again....kits should ONLY be installed by QUALIFIED installers with a QUALIFIED EPA CERTIFIED kit...for MY SAFETY and EVERYONE elses safety...PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE.

It's not ENTIRELY Bill's fault the prices of the vehicles are so flipping expensive...I agree, it's entirely CRAZY to pay that kind of money for THAT kind of a car....I am positive Bill did not pick it up for less than $10,000. Everything at auctions are going for ridiculous pirces. So when I step back and think about it everyone paying those prices are willing to....Bill was willing to pay quite a bit to be able to sale it for more to make a profit (a valid business practice)....and someone is willing to pay the higher price (a valid consumer practice). Crazy economics...but that's the way it seems to go.

Oil prices go up and we all PAY it, what choice do we have? NONE! unless you quit driving and such, but is that really an option for everyone? probably not.

I think it was Bill Clinton who said while in his term....if America quit driving for 3 days it would bring the oil companies to their KNEES!....I guess the only one who went to their knees was that Monica Lewinsky gal...hahaha.

But seriously, it would be admirable to see the USA band together and pick a 3 day weekend where we just simply did NOT DRIVE unless it was an absolute emergency.

[dtrush]

Re: Bear Creek SUV. Any feedback?

I hate driving really so pick a day and we'll do it