Clean Energy pumps in Las Vegas soon

[Mshepcomm]

I fueled up next to a Clean Energy exec today. He told me that CE is acquiring/taking over the CNG pumps in Las Vegas from Haycock Petroleum.
They have already applied to the appropriate agencies to add 3600 PSI at Bonanza and the other stations.
This would mean, presumably, that we won't have to go all the way out to the LV City yard for our 3600 before we hit the I-15 heading home, a savings of about 7-10 miles on the precious "return to Barstow and fill up" tank.
And probably will not need a Haycock card to fillup?

Now all we need is a pump somewhere in the middle between Vegas and Barstow.

[alliedmotors]

Re: Clean Energy pumps in Las Vegas soon

I just got my Haycock card since I was in LV for a trade show with a dedicated CNG. They affirmed that at the end of November, CE is taking over and Haycock cards will no longer work, Visa and MC will be accepted. Any balances on the accounts will be returned as checks.

[chromevader]

Re: Clean Energy pumps in Las Vegas soon

I just got my Haycock card since I was in LV for a trade show with a dedicated CNG. They affirmed that at the end of November, CE is taking over and Haycock cards will no longer work, Visa and MC will be accepted. Any balances on the accounts will be returned as checks.

This is good info.

Is CE taking over all of the public access LV CNG pumps?

[gringostar]

Re: Clean Energy pumps in Las Vegas soon

Good bye $2.07 gas. Hello $2.79 gas.

[cngacrossusa]

Re: Clean Energy pumps in Las Vegas soon

Yep, GringoStar is right, Clean Energy - - - aka GREED ENERGY - - - is up to their old tricks - - - trying to get monopoly position in town that will allow it to charge whatever they want!!!

Look at Albuquerque, NM like I warned about back in 2007 (search CNGCHAT for Save Albuquerque) - - - - ABQ, NM used to be run by the University of NM and only $2.00 per gge, but now under CE (ie GREED ENERGY) price has jumped to $2.60 per gge - - - - that's a 30 PERCENT increase with absolutely NO infrastructure improvement whatsoever!!! Just GREEDY CE taking over a critical location on primary route so they can charge whatever they want!!!

We educated CNG users on CNGCHAT need to BAND TOGETHER with help from John and Curtis and newly President elect Obama or ANYONE to stop the monopolization of public cng pumps by CE. This is exactly NOT what we need to spread cng across the country is prices that now EXCEED the pump price of unleaded petrol (down to only $1.89 here in OK/KS/AR area for unleaded). It's time for a TRANSPORTATION REVOLUTION . . . don't let CE get any more subsidies or grants if they price-gouge public cng pumps they take over. Don't let CE get ANY subsidies whatsoever for a new site unless they offer reasonably priced cng (like UNDER $2 per gge - - I'm sure $1.75/gge allows for plenty of profit margin). Don't let GM or Ford get any bailout money if they don't immediately sell cng, electric, diesel and economical vehicles that they sell to other countries. ENOUGH is Enough!!!

Sincerely . . . . cngacrossusa (I may be old, but I know when I'm getting scammed!)

[alliedmotors]

Re: Clean Energy pumps in Las Vegas soon

This is good info.

Is CE taking over all of the public access LV CNG pumps?

Yes, they will be operating all public locations. The Haycock gas card is being discontinued. I expressed my concern about CE to the staff that prices aren't being kept in line with the decrease in natural gas.

I would just like to see a station closer to the freeway south of Vegas. It's a PITA fighting traffic to get to the other side of town.

[hansonc]

Re: Clean Energy pumps in Las Vegas soon

@cngacrossusa

Welcome to the free market system. If demand will support a $2.79 price CE can (and most economists would argue should) charge $2.79. The free market also allows you to buy a chunk of land, buy some equipment and sell CNG for whatever you want too.

If I had the funds, I'd make Questar and offer in Utah to buy up the pumps and raise the prices and turn a nice profit as should CE.

[Dick]

Re: Clean Energy pumps in Las Vegas soon

CE also has a monopoly on all the public CNG stations in Colorado. Filled yesterday in Colorado Springs for $2.09 per GGE. Two month ago the price was $2.89 per GGE.

If "Greed Energy" has a monopoly why would they ever decrease prices and therefore decrease their profits? Could it be the silly marketplace at work?

[John Mitton]

The actual price is...?

Do we know the new price in Vegas post-CE? Is it $2.79?

[Steve]

Re: Clean Energy pumps in Las Vegas soon

So, I am on a business trip to Albuquerque and I thought I would drive by the lone CNG pump here in the city (it happened to be midway between the airport and where I am staying) and it is indeed at $2.60 GGE. I was gob smacked (my first public use of that expression - quite possibly my last public use of that expression. Gob is British slang for mouth). But, I am headed over to cngprices.com to at least update the price there. If I were a betting man, new Mexico is probably not a hot bed for CNG use.

[CraziFuzzy]

Re: Clean Energy pumps in Las Vegas soon

I know there is a lot of distaste for CE on the boards here (and in the CNG community in general), but I think we should refrain from using the term monopoly, as that is not what they are. A monopoly would imply they are in the position to prevent competition. Simply having the market cornered in a certain area does not make one a monopoly, especially since they are charging such a high profit margin. Their high pricing would actually make it EASIER for someone to come in and compete with them. (example being the Trillium station in Anaheim). All that takes is someone willing to take the risk. The simple fact is, that no one else is in the position to take the risk, as not many have the economic stability to fall back on that TBP has.

Also realize that the public run facilities are not turning a profit, so when a private for profit company comes in and takes it over, it is EXPECTED that prices will increase.

[Tax Counsel]

Re: Clean Energy pumps in Las Vegas soon

In the classical sense of the term, "monopoly" may be the correct label to describe CE's control of the CNG market.

"Main Entry: mo•nop•o•ly
1 : exclusive ownership through legal privilege, command of supply, or concerted action
2 : exclusive possession or control
3 : a commodity controlled by one party
4 : one that has a monopoly "

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/monopoly

If you're seeking to purchase CNG in the Los Angeles Basin, it is my belief that CE has near monopoly status. For example, if you want CNG in Long Beach, CE is your only provider. The two next closest stations are also CE stations: Carson and Seal Beach. The nearest competition is California Clean Fuels in Bellflower, So Cal Gas in Garden Grove and Trillium in Anaheim; all 3 of which are over 10 miles away. So, if you define competition as the ability to obtain a substitute product from a different vendor in the immediate geographical area, it doesn't exist. Arguably, CE controls the commodity of CNG in many areas of Southern California; a status that qualifies it as a monopoly.

Beyond monopoly status, it is my opinion that CE has and continues to engage in anti-competitive behavior. The City of Long Beach operated its own CNG fueling stations. Prices at these stations were set by the municipality on "cost plus" basis, that is the commodity cost plus the cost of compression. According to my sources, Long Beach based its price on So Cal Gas' CPUC-regulated price of CNG.

This pricing scheme regularly resulted in CNG prices about 50¢ per GGE less than CE. For example, the City of Long Beach was charging $1.49 per GGE from July through August 2004. At that same time CE was charging $1.979 per GGE. During June 2005, Long Beach was charging $1.59 while CE set their price at $2.099. This pricing disparity was creating competition for CE. CE's answer? Contract with the city to take over its CNG fueling operations. Once the competition was gone, prices at the Long Beach locations were raised to match CE’s other locations.

It appears to me that CE will lower its prices only when competition reduces demand at one of its stations. When Trillium re-opened the So Cal Gas Anaheim location, charging prices lower than CE Garden Grove, CE responded by lowering its prices BUT only at the nearby Garden Grove location. Most of CE's other stations continued to charge about 50¢ more per GGE.

This pricing disparity continues today (11/12/08). According to cngprices.com, So Cal Gas is charging $1.91 per GGE (Garden Grove, Pico Rivera, Azusa, and Riverside), Trillium $1.98 (Anaheim), and $1.83 at the City of Corona. CE is charging $2.35. Keep in mind that Trillium is unregulated and that So Cal Gas is earning a rate-regulated profit. Yes, CE has attempted to differentiate their stations as being "superior", but are they worth 23% more (an extra 44¢ per GGE, or an extra $5.28 for a 12 GGE fill-up)? Today, cngprices shows $2.07 or $2.08 per GGE in Las Vegas. Do you think that CE will leave that profit margin unchanged when it takes over operation of those locations? I doubt it.

When considering CE's response to local price competition and its acquisition of competing operations, it's hard for me to regard CE as anything but a monopoly.

[Linda]

Re: Clean Energy pumps in Las Vegas soon

I live in the Seattle area. When Pudget Sound Energy closed it's company pump to public and fleet sales, CE raised it's prices to higher than the traffic would bear. They have since lowered their prices but still high 2.24 gge. They are now the only game in Washington State. Too bad for us.

Linda
09 GX

[CraziFuzzy]

Re: Clean Energy pumps in Las Vegas soon

My point was that they are not necessarily taking part in anti-competitive business, so much as there is no business out there even attempting to compete with them. In the locations where they DO have other private competition, they did reduce their prices to remain competitive. In fact, in areas where there are multiple municipal fueling stations, they haven't even tried to push into the area. (Example is the Ontario and Riverside city yards). In a way, I feel the city yards selling at cost is more anti-competitive than what CE does, as it uses it's other financial sources and prices its products at cost, which would be impossible to compete with as a private company.

[Tax Counsel]

Re: Clean Energy pumps in Las Vegas soon

Haven't pushed into those (Riverside / Ontario) areas? Or, has the entities operating those fueling stations resisted CE's attempts to take over their CNG operations?

Long Beach is a perfect example in that regard. According to the same source who provided the citiy's pricing data, CE chased the city for years to take over its dispensers. We all know what happened when CE got what it wanted.