California CNG Station Prices going up $$$ again!

[CNGCARS]

Stopped into Burbanks Clean Energy Station on 7/2/08 with a customer to fill up his newly purchased Cavalier. To my shock the price went up again!
$2.60 is the new price. I could not believe my eyes, so I turned on the lap top and updated CNGPRICES.com on the spot. NoW THE BOYCOTT of Burbank station begins for me.

I see someone has also updated the San Fernando station price from $1.99 to $2.24 so that is still the station to hit. I will go by in the next couple of days to verify that. Its about time to start shopping for a home appliance, enough is enough...

[ajgiorgi]

Re: California CNG Station Prices going up $$$ again!

Tell me about it, I went by the SJC airport and it went up to 2.99 from 2.63. What the hell?

[Techie]

Re: California CNG Station Prices going up $$$ again!

Phoenix Sky Harbor Airport is at 2.999 per GGE! Oil companies are making huge sums of money. Looks like Clean Energy wants to join in! I cannot see CNG going as high as as gasoline, but if it hits about $3.50 a GGE, I can see at least some of the speculators coming off the CNG used car marketplace. That will allow true CNG enthusiasts to buy vehicles at reasonable prices.

[Jim Senter]

Re: California CNG Station Prices going up $$$ again!

Sunday afternoon the Carson CE station was at $2.99. When I filled up again on Tuesday it was $3.19!

[Adrian]

Re: California CNG Station Prices going up $$$ again!

Phoenix Sky Harbor Airport is at 2.999 per GGE! Oil companies are making huge sums of money. Looks like Clean Energy wants to join in! I cannot see CNG going as high as as gasoline, but if it hits about $3.50 a GGE, I can see at least some of the speculators coming off the CNG used car marketplace. That will allow true CNG enthusiasts to buy vehicles at reasonable prices.

Not as long as Utah remains at their much lower CNG price, they'll keep paying high prices for CA cars; perhaps they'll have more choice as some CA buyers might change their mind. I think this increase in CNG price should be a loud notice : Time to buy a home fueling station (FMQ2-36)

[scott]

Re: California CNG Station Prices going up $$$ again!

Santa Monica $3.19. One of my employees told me that Canoga Park was also $3.19.

[Techie]

Re: California CNG Station Prices going up $$$ again!

There is something I do not understand. CNG is domestically produced. We are not held hostage to world market pricing. I have been seeing a price jump of CNG which somewhat reminds me price jumps of gasoline. I do not currently see China and India eating up world supply of Natural Gas, I cannot see the justification of the increase in CNG prices at the dispenser. Seems like fuel choices are getting narrower. E85 costs almost as much as gasoline.

[CraziFuzzy]

Re: California CNG Station Prices going up $$$ again!

There is something I do not understand. CNG is domestically produced. We are not held hostage to world market pricing. I have been seeing a price jump of CNG which somewhat reminds me price jumps of gasoline. I do not currently see China and India eating up world supply of Natural Gas, I cannot see the justification of the increase in CNG prices at the dispenser. Seems like fuel choices are getting narrower. E85 costs almost as much as gasoline.

Are people still paying for the CNG at the higher prices? In a free market, this is what justifies the price increase. I believe a big reason gasoline has started levelling off is that people are genuinly reducing the amount they purchase, I have already noticed considerable differences in driving styles, and the vehicles on th road. Decreasing demand is the only thing that will stabalize the price, usually this comes in the form of a lower price elsewhere, i.e. competition. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone using a $3/gge station in Ontario, where the City pump is still $1.72.

Competition is the only thing missing from the CNG Marketplace. Competition in all areas is simply missing. There is no competition in the public fueling stations, no competition in the home refueling equipment, no competition in new vehicle availability, and no competition in conversions. Even after all these monopolies, it is STILL a wise economic decision for most. Imagine once the market grows and you DO get some competitive forces out there, the economics will realy start to play out then.

[Timon]

Re: California CNG Station Prices going up $$$ again!

There is something I do not understand. CNG is domestically produced. We are not held hostage to world market pricing. I have been seeing a price jump of CNG which somewhat reminds me price jumps of gasoline. I do not currently see China and India eating up world supply of Natural Gas, I cannot see the justification of the increase in CNG prices at the dispenser. Seems like fuel choices are getting narrower. E85 costs almost as much as gasoline.

It's real simple, GREED!

[CraziFuzzy]

Re: California CNG Station Prices going up $$$ again!

It's real simple, GREED!

Of course, what Timon is implying is that selling a product for as much as the market will bear is good business sense. They realized that the absolute cost of CNG is not the incentive for people to buy it, but instead it is the difference between gasoline to cng pricing that sets the demand. Therefore, by keeping this gap set, they can keep demand steady, sell the same volume, but at the same time, maximize their profit margin. Sadly, I can find no fault in this practice. The fault rests in the market, for not providing any competetive forces against this.

[Adrian]

Re: California CNG Station Prices going up $$$ again!

Of course, what Timon is implying is that selling a product for as much as the market will bear is good business sense. They realized that the absolute cost of CNG is not the incentive for people to buy it, but instead it is the difference between gasoline to cng pricing that sets the demand. Therefore, by keeping this gap set, they can keep demand steady, sell the same volume, but at the same time, maximize their profit margin. Sadly, I can find no fault in this practice. The fault rests in the market, for not providing any competetive forces against this.

One could argue that a competitive force is our choice of buying, or not buying a home fueling device. If everyone that drove private cng cars had one, demand might decrease at the public cng pump and you might just see prices decrease.

[CraziFuzzy]

Re: California CNG Station Prices going up $$$ again!

One could argue that a competitive force is our choice of buying, or not buying a home fueling device. If everyone that drove private cng cars had one, demand might decrease at the public cng pump and you might just see prices decrease.

That's not entirely true when the Home refueling is ALSO without competition. Both markets are running at max market bearability, vice cost+marginal profit, like in a competitive market. If and when ECOFueler ever releases their home unit, you might see the cost of Fuelmaker's offerings dropping significantly.

[Techie]

Re: California CNG Station Prices going up $$$ again!

That's not entirely true when the Home refueling is ALSO without competition. Both markets are running at max market bearability, vice cost+marginal profit, like in a competitive market. If and when ECOFueler ever releases their home unit, you might see the cost of Fuelmaker's offerings dropping significantly.

Certain parts of the country are begining to charge more per cubic foot of home gas if a person was to have a Fuel Maker installed. If you can install one yourself, you could probably avoid the extra charge, but in most cases, it is not possible to purchase a Fuel Maker without the installation and installation will require some sort of a permit. (In my area only a contractor is required to have a permit. Home owner is not required to have one as long as the home is not used or ever will be used as a rental house - that is what my city officials told me)

It seems to me that there are forces out there that are doing everything that they possibly can in order to eliminate any and all less expensive fuel sources. Those forces did that with propane a while ago. For about 2 years or so, propane (in my area) was the same or slightly more than gasoline. Propane was also significantly more expensive than heating oil. Now, they are doing what they can to kill CNG. They are trying hard, too. Look around, how many new CNG cars are coming to the market? They figure that no new CNG cars (almost) and expensive CNG fuel will certainly kill the desire for an alternative fuel that is cleaner and that makes sense. Then, it will not be hard to charge any price for Gasoline - it is not like anyone is going to have an option of an alternative.

It is almost like a game. First, they will kill any and all competing fuels than they will raise prices. Majority of business is like that. China and Wal-mart are functioning in a similar fashion. We are supposed to be a Free Market but a few big boys do not want it to be. Let's not allow them to do that.

[CraziFuzzy]

Re: California CNG Station Prices going up $$$ again!

Certain parts of the country are begining to charge more per cubic foot of home gas if a person was to have a Fuel Maker installed. If you can install one yourself, you could probably avoid the extra charge, but in most cases, it is not possible to purchase a Fuel Maker without the installation and installation will require some sort of a permit. (In my area only a contractor is required to have a permit. Home owner is not required to have one as long as the home is not used or ever will be used as a rental house - that is what my city officials told me)

It seems to me that there are forces out there that are doing everything that they possibly can in order to eliminate any and all less expensive fuel sources. Those forces did that with propane a while ago. For about 2 years or so, propane (in my area) was the same or slightly more than gasoline. Propane was also significantly more expensive than heating oil. Now, they are doing what they can to kill CNG. They are trying hard, too. Look around, how many new CNG cars are coming to the market? They figure that no new CNG cars (almost) and expensive CNG fuel will certainly kill the desire for an alternative fuel that is cleaner and that makes sense. Then, it will not be hard to charge any price for Gasoline - it is not like anyone is going to have an option of an alternative.

It is almost like a game. First, they will kill any and all competing fuels than they will raise prices. Majority of business is like that. China and Wal-mart are functioning in a similar fashion. We are supposed to be a Free Market but a few big boys do not want it to be. Let's not allow them to do that.

I really don't think it's as sinister as you make it seem. There is no conspiracy trying to get CNG out of the picture, it's all a matter of business. I am not surprised that some natural gas companies are charging more if you have a home refueler, as you will be using a LOT more gas than the average residential gas line, and as such, more than what they had counted on when designing the network.

Car makers are not making CNG vehicles anymore, because they never really made any decent profit on them, because until the last year or two, there was never a consumer demand for them. The cost savings a couple years ago were insignificant unless you were talking about an entire fleet. Most fleets didn't even switch to CNG for economic reasons, but instead because they were 'mandated' to do so by state authorities, based on air quality concerns.

Even now, the demand for CNG cars is just starting to skyrocket. So now is the time the car manufacturers would likely be looking at the market to determine if they will take part in it. Then, at the speed of american busniess, if they DO decide to jump (back) in, you can expect a couple years before they actually bring anything to market. I don't think it's sinister/evil, as much as just bad circumstances and an industry that is so bloated and slow changing that it cannot react to a major market shift like we are experiencing.