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CE to build first site in OK @ Will Rogers Airport

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  • #31
    Re: CE to build first site in OK @ Will Rogers Airport

    As soon as you guys and that load of crooks at Chesapeake get into CNG you can bet that nobody will spend the thousands to convert their vehicles, the thousands for the vehicles that are CNG, and all of that money For $2 + CNG. Yes you will kill it for the common people. Most people switch to CNG so they can actually LIVE and make ends meet by saving their fuel money. They don't switch strictly for the environmental benefits. Sure you can blow smoke up somebody with a fleet and save them a few dollars, but wouldn't it suck if those companies found out that your discount price was BS. That they could get the same thing for less. If not for OneOk (ONG) right now selling it at 91 cents it would already be dead. You say their business model isn't working? They sell gas to practically every city in Oklahoma. Do you think they are broke? They are a freaking GAS UTILITY if they couldn't make it work, they wouldn't be doing it. I went to your Cheyenne WY pump, and the only thing using it was a rabbit for some shade. I know that you personally have nothing to do with what your bosses do, and their actions, but honestly when CE and Chesapeake get involved you can kiss cheap CNG goodbye. Don't worry, I am sure CE is an excellent tax write off for Pickens and co. a billionaire has to have a few of those anyway right?

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    • #32
      Re: CE to build first site in OK @ Will Rogers Airport

      I am always amazed how even just an informational posting degrades into you guys ripping on CE.

      CE, I hope you dont think these wack jobs who have no clue how to run a business represent all of us. I for one very much appreciate you even taking the time to listen to this garbage. And I am surprised you do.

      You guys talk about ONG and Questar all day long, but ONG will not leave OK and Questar will not leave the rocky mountain region that is their home. These are both great models, that have driven demand, put up new statione etc etc etc. To bad that they are not being replicated elsewhere. ONG and Questar both subsidize their CNG operations by having a core business that makes money elsewhere. Questar is an integrated drilling ,production, pipeline and utility company, CNG is just a side note for them. Same with ONG, their CNG system as a stand alone loses money, which they ignore because their primary business is a gas utility. CE does not have this ability, so yes it costs more, but it is also their core business and it allows them to go anywhere they want to do business and call on fleets. If you want a nationwide infrastructure, you cannot continue to look only at Questar and ONG who give away fuel.

      Stop comparing the two, they are completely and utterly different animals and it is garbage to do so, you can only compare CE to trillium and Pinacle, thats about it. Hopefully some of the European or South American companies will eventually jump in as well and we will see some real competitiion. You guys always rip on CE for stifling competition. This is America, if you want to run a business that REALLY competes with CE you can do it, it is just very capital intensive and you nut jobs know perfectly well you cant do it, otherwise you would have done it.

      Giving away fuel is not a good way to do business in the US. CE does not have the option. And you know nothing about Chesapeake if you think they are crooks, they are a phenomenal company. Do a little reaseach and buy some Chesapeake stock, they know how to run a business. Their CNG plans are focusing on reducing the costs of conversions and re-egnaging the OEM manufacturers. Their focus is improving the nationwide market for NGVs irrespective of whether or not it directly benefits their sales, that is not being a crook. Its diving in head first to help a fledgling industry.

      And you can kiss cheap CNG goodbye, because someday these companies will wake up and realize they cant keep losing money on their CNG operation.

      And I used the Cheyenne station about a week ago, the price is below $2 GGE, $1.68 I think, so why are you still ripping on it? Why the rabbit comment. You get what you want at one station and still rip, what gives?

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      • #33
        Re: CE to build first site in OK @ Will Rogers Airport

        I know more about Chesapeake than you could possibly fathom. I bet you read a warm fuzzy story about them in the newspaper or saw a TV advertisement about how they are magnificent and even had a second helping of their wonderful propaganda. I bet you aren't a royalty owner either that leases with them. You obviously are either a share holder of one of these companies, somebody that is politically correct and lives in a bubble where you are looked out for and nothing bad ever happens to you, or just ignorant. I guess all of us "wack jobs" can at least see the writing on the wall. You see most of us in the CNG community aren't so stupid to believe that these individuals have our best interest at heart. I know they need to make money, and personally I think it was a political stunt for CE to put a pump in OKC because they know ONG is there. If every state had a utility putting up the pumps at least to fuel their own fleets on, that would be a real start that actually benefits the common person. I love how you resort to name calling like a 5 year old. I will respectfully disagree with your position, and don't worry I didn't put a penny in that Cheyenne pump. I drove on and filled with 77 cent CNG at Questar. Now to stay on topic, CE put in a pump at OKC everybody. Fill up there if you want.
        Last edited by cngbuck; 07-24-2008, 01:23 PM.

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        • #34
          Re: CE to build first site in OK @ Will Rogers Airport

          I'm glad to see more pumps being built, but agree that $2+/gge is ridiculous, given the price that ONG is selling it. Granted ONG is making minimal if any profit margin, but I know they aren't selling at a loss.

          I for one would happily pay ONG a bit more $$$ per GGE to fund them modernizing their filling stations... even $1.25/gge would beat the crap out of paying $2+

          Having said that, I suspect that if CE manages to pull off getting public stations in OK, it will get more people on the CNG bandwagon. Of course, if ONG could meet the filling demands of the public, more of us would get on the wagon too.

          I'm new to the CNG community, and love my truck so far (02 F150), but have already had several days where I can't get enough of a fill at ONG to make my daily commute... good thing I'm bi-fuel, but it's killing my per-mile cost to still burn a gallon or two of regular gas daily.

          Full fillups would be a blessing, and of course that requires better equipment. No disrespect meant on ONG here, just trying to see both sides of the coin... and I'd rather give mine to ONG if possible.

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          • #35
            Re: CE to build first site in OK @ Will Rogers Airport

            A question to Mr. Clean Air. To give us a litte perspective about how much is it costing you guys to put in a new station in OKC. Total package. Turn Key. I know these stations are not free. Maybe some of you other guys also know. Just wondering.

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            • #36
              Re: CE to build first site in OK @ Will Rogers Airport

              Originally posted by gottagetit View Post
              A question to Mr. Clean Air. To give us a litte perspective about how much is it costing you guys to put in a new station in OKC. Total package. Turn Key. I know these stations are not free. Maybe some of you other guys also know. Just wondering.
              Send a P.M to Curtis. He set up a public station next to his dealership and can give you an idea of cost involved.

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              • #37
                Re: CE to build first site in OK @ Will Rogers Airport

                Originally posted by Lakewood90712 View Post
                Send a P.M to Curtis. He set up a public station next to his dealership and can give you an idea of cost involved.
                Why PM him? Surely, he has been reading this thread too ..

                This might be of help:

                http://www.cngchat.com/forum/showpos...99&postcount=8
                Last edited by jblue; 07-26-2008, 10:51 PM.


                ?Innovation is driven by having access to things.? -- Gleb Budman, CEO of backblaze.com

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                • #38
                  Re: CE to build first site in OK @ Will Rogers Airport

                  Station Price?
                  Curtis is paying to much to put in, maintain, and upgrade his medium volume (50-100 CFM) "sieve" station in Palmdale. He's stuck in an area with few equipment supplier options and grant money evaperates faster than water in the high desert.
                  For CE it will probably be $500k to $1M to start off with, depending on how much they speculate OKC will pump and how much grant money and tax incentives are involved and if they bulldoze and start from scratch (site work is not cheap).
                  Personally, assuming the gas line is big enough, I could get in there and upgrade to 1GGE per minute @ 3,600PSI temperature compensated fill with 200GGE of storage for about $100k using refurbished used equipment. Which would be a step up for most people, but couldn't handle much fleet traffic.
                  Station design and costing is a totally subjective science. There are no cookie-cutter solutions once you get larger than a Fuelmaker FMQ-8-36.
                  Fleet size, daily use, fast fill time, number of dispensers, redundency, gas or electric prime mover and many other factors can take a station from $100k to $5M pretty quick.
                  Your Friendly Nazi Squirrel Administrator

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                  • #39
                    Re: CE to build first site in OK @ Will Rogers Airport

                    Cnghal hit it pretty well. I anticipate this site will be around $1.2 - 1.5M. It will initially be set up to handle up to 1000 GGE / day. We are wrestling with the idea of bringing in a higher pressure line or using the lower pressure already on-site.

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                    • #40
                      Re: CE to build first site in OK @ Will Rogers Airport

                      I live in Tulsa and have been using CNG since Nov., 2007. I think it is great that companies want to build more infrastructure for the CNG community and fleets, but $2.50 GGE is outrages. You have to remember that CE is getting a HUGE tax break on the infrastructure. I belive it is somewhere between 50-80% of cost, not to mention the .32 cents they receive for each GGE sold. I am a fan of T. Boone's wind farm idea, but if he is a true environmentalist he would not be concerned with profiting from CNG. Instead, he could create a non-profit CNG organization to help the environment and the economy. He is all about money, which is fine, but don't falsfy your motives.

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                      • #41
                        Re: CE to build first site in OK @ Will Rogers Airport

                        I meant outrageous. I should have proof read. Oops!

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                        • #42
                          Re: CE to build first site in OK @ Will Rogers Airport

                          Your way off on the 80% of the station cost in tax credits. Station cost to us will be around $1.5 M. Fed credit is up to $30K, OK state tax credit while great at 50% we have two issues: a) we will not have the state tax liability to absorb this and b) it expires in 2010 so we will not be able to carry it forward long enough to make much use of this. There are currently no OK or Federal grants available for these projects.

                          Excise tax credit of $0.32 we only get for one year of the station operation at best, so it plays a role, but only a small one when we are trying to recoup a $1.5 M investment over many years.

                          At $10/MMBtu gas commoidty alone is $1.25 GGE, add capital recovery, insurance, operation and maintenance, profit, G&A, land lease, taxes, etc etc. and you get to our price.

                          I really dont see how you guys think this is so outrageous. If this site cost us $150K you would have a very valid point, but this is a $1.5 M investment that has to be well maintained, the fleets who are committing to its use expect zero downtime, which means lots of preventative maintenance and tender love and care from a full time local staff, this is not cheap.
                          Last edited by Clean Energy - CO; 08-05-2008, 10:44 AM.

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                          • #43
                            Re: CE to build first site in OK @ Will Rogers Airport

                            Come build a station in Tulsa, I'll use it. I love ONGs price, but am not thrilled with running the last 20 miles to work on regular gas every day because I couldn't get enough PSI the night before. It's counter-productive to why I went CNG in the first place.

                            When can you have it open?

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                            • #44
                              Re: CE to build first site in OK @ Will Rogers Airport

                              We are looking at potentially building a public access site at the Tulsa airport. The other one we are evaluating is a project with the Tulsa MTTA Transit fleet, but unfortunately due to land constraints I doubt that site will be open to the public, they simply dont have anywhere to put a PA dispenser.

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                              • #45
                                Re: CE to build first site in OK @ Will Rogers Airport

                                Originally posted by Clean Energy - CO View Post
                                We are looking at potentially building a public access site at the Tulsa airport.
                                Cool. Yet another place that is on my way to work!! This would be a great spot:

                                http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=e...=UTF8&t=h&z=16

                                Dunno if Spartan or the city owns the land though. And then there is this patch of something that is not being uses AFAIK, however when I drive by it, it looks like it has gas pipes coming out of the ground. Might be a pipeline ... nevertheless it's major drawback is that is would be completely out of the way for anyone:

                                http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&sadd...=UTF8&t=h&z=18

                                If location/land is an issue, here might be an option:

                                http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=e...=UTF8&t=h&z=16

                                I am in tight with Spartan and could make an introduction to right people for ya. I don't know how much land they own around the building, but some time back they built dorms to the south of the campus.

                                Last edited by jblue; 08-05-2008, 01:35 PM.


                                ?Innovation is driven by having access to things.? -- Gleb Budman, CEO of backblaze.com

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