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CE to build first site in OK @ Will Rogers Airport

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  • #16
    Re: CE to build first site in OK @ Will Rogers Airport

    Originally posted by Clean Energy - CO View Post
    A large fleet, that has 150 vehicles and uses thousands more fuel than a consumer can guarantee large commitment and therefore a discount.
    Thanks for taking the time to talk about all of this. However, it would seem that the justification is being hung on the key phrase of "a consumer", and by your own definition, would not all of the "a consumer" aggregated be a large fleet unto themselves?

    Admittedly, CE is opening a station in an area where there are *very* few privately owned CNG vehicle's. Why would CE rip out an installation instead of fixing and/or upgrading what is broke? Would that not help keep the gge price down? My pictures clearly show power at the pump ...


    ?Innovation is driven by having access to things.? -- Gleb Budman, CEO of backblaze.com

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    • #17
      Re: CE to build first site in OK @ Will Rogers Airport

      So what are the benefits of CE rebuilding a staion that works already? It clearly isn't the price of fuel, beacuse at .91 per gge compared to $2.50 per gge it is clearly a ripoff.

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      • #18
        Re: CE to build first site in OK @ Will Rogers Airport

        Originally posted by smirch9 View Post
        So what are the benefits of CE rebuilding a staion that works already?
        The benefits ? A working station with high pressure on line 24/7 . If the station was shut down 3 years ago , it was prob. too costly for the operator at the time (gasoline was under $2 ?)

        The downside ? same as gasoline and diesel , price will be as high as the market will tollerate.

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        • #19
          Re: CE to build first site in OK @ Will Rogers Airport

          Originally posted by Lakewood90712 View Post
          The benefits ? A working station with high pressure on line 24/7 . If the station was shut down 3 years ago , it was prob. too costly for the operator at the time (gasoline was under $2 ?)

          The downside ? same as gasoline and diesel , price will be as high as the market will tollerate.
          In all honesty it won't affect me beacuase by the time the Nazi's get around, I'll be fueling from home. They'll just be taking advantage of everybody else who doesn't have that edge.

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          • #20
            Re: CE to build first site in OK @ Will Rogers Airport

            "High pressure on line 24/7"
            Nice concept! Let me tell you how it works in Tucson, were the CE station at the airport is the only public station in town. You are lucky to get 3600psi at the pump, which doesn't cut it when it's 100 degrees outside. You can drive a mile down the road and your fuel gauge is at 7/8 which is great when you just drove 10 miles to get fuel. Then, some dumb ass does a drive off and breaks a 3600 fill line, hits the emergency shut off and leaves before anyone catches him. An hour later, 15 school buses come to fill, notice the problem, call the phone number on the pump and in maybe 3 hrs, a tech drives down from Phoenix to fix the problem. The station has now been down for at least 4 hours minimum. Now imaging a fleet of dedicated airport shuttles in OKC were the closest CE service techs are 4 hours away in DFW. Looks like Mustang is going to be a hopping station.
            It could be worse, CE could just one day consider it to be too much of a bother and just abandon the station like they did in Las Cruses, NM.
            Then you'd back were you started from.
            Your Friendly Nazi Squirrel Administrator

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            • #21
              Re: CE to build first site in OK @ Will Rogers Airport

              Originally posted by smirch9 View Post
              So what are the benefits of CE rebuilding a staion that works already? It clearly isn't the price of fuel, beacuse at .91 per gge compared to $2.50 per gge it is clearly a ripoff.
              Just because a station physically exists does not mean it works, or that it will work for our needs, or more imporatantly the needs of the shuttle fleet who will be using it every day. We plan to put 250,000 GGE a year on the site in less than three years. The compressor and storage simply would not handle such a load without a major upgrade and overhaul. You filling times and pressures would suffer, and this will not fly with shuttle drivers who rely on the fleet. We have standardized our compressor, gas booster, dryer and storage packages. A new one, along with a new dispenser and canopy will go into the site.

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              • #22
                Re: CE to build first site in OK @ Will Rogers Airport

                Originally posted by cnghal View Post
                "High pressure on line 24/7"
                Nice concept! Let me tell you how it works in Tucson, were the CE station at the airport is the only public station in town. You are lucky to get 3600psi at the pump, which doesn't cut it when it's 100 degrees outside. You can drive a mile down the road and your fuel gauge is at 7/8 which is great when you just drove 10 miles to get fuel. Then, some dumb ass does a drive off and breaks a 3600 fill line, hits the emergency shut off and leaves before anyone catches him. An hour later, 15 school buses come to fill, notice the problem, call the phone number on the pump and in maybe 3 hrs, a tech drives down from Phoenix to fix the problem. The station has now been down for at least 4 hours minimum. Now imaging a fleet of dedicated airport shuttles in OKC were the closest CE service techs are 4 hours away in DFW. Looks like Mustang is going to be a hopping station.
                It could be worse, CE could just one day consider it to be too much of a bother and just abandon the station like they did in Las Cruses, NM.
                Then you'd back were you started from.
                We are opening a local CE operations and maintenance center in OKC. Techs will be local.

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                • #23
                  Re: CE to build first site in OK @ Will Rogers Airport

                  Las Cruces was not a normal situation, the City owned half of the station, the contract ended and they wanted to buy us out and take the site private. So they did. We offered to take it over and keep it public in return for a new commitment to add CNG vehicles to the fleet, but they declined.

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                  • #24
                    Re: CE to build first site in OK @ Will Rogers Airport

                    Originally posted by smirch9 View Post
                    In all honesty it won't affect me beacuase by the time the Nazi's get around, I'll be fueling from home. They'll just be taking advantage of everybody else who doesn't have that edge.
                    How are we taking advantage of anyone by adding a new station to the fueling network? The option previously was fill at ONG for $0.91 and take your chances that you will get a fill at all. The new option will be fill at ONG OR fill at CE for $2.50 fuel up at the most powerful site in the state OR buy a home refueling unit.

                    I'm unclear on how addding an option for consumers is taking advantage.

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                    • #25
                      Re: CE to build first site in OK @ Will Rogers Airport

                      That station is not big enough to support the type of flow CE needs to operate. It looks like a mid 90's Natural Fuels package twin IR compressors with about 11,000 cf. of storage. the dispenser is probably not weights an measurers approved. Bryan Powers, the head of maintenance for CE told me they are tying to get there entire network down to 4 basic compressor packages. More and more packagers are not stocking parts and want the end users to stock all the spare parts them selves. This can reach $80,000 for a Greenfield.

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                      • #26
                        Re: CE to build first site in OK @ Will Rogers Airport

                        Originally posted by ThunderStik View Post
                        Your pricing structure is gouging at best when the prices are not set on actual cost of the product. You price is set by the price of gasoline.

                        You have already stated that you are not concerned with us private owners. Correct?

                        You already stated that your stations are paid for by the contracts. So in reality any extra would be icing on the cake but yet you choose to screw those folks who could make you more money.

                        As far as im concerned your doing more to harm CNG than good. You can argue till your blue in the face but thats the way I see it. You inflate the price, then tell those whom you have contracts with " look at what a discount we are giving you see how much were are screwing the general public". Nice ethics

                        I would rather drive gasoline and will before I give you a cent. May sound unreasonable but whats the difference a theif is a theif is a theif. What a waste of an opportunity to be a stand up business.
                        We are concerned with private owners, and will become more concerned with them over time as we plan to spend more time developing consumer markets. Right now our primary focus is fleet markets. Building these station is a very capital intensive process, converting and financing vehicles, especially heavy duty vehicles, is captial intensive. You want a cheaper fuel price, we want this industry to actually succeed in the US, but we want to actually make a difference. Your continually missing the bigger picture, we are not there yet. This money needs to be re-invested to make this a self sustaining success.

                        Our prices are a common source of battery on this forum, but what everyone seems to ignore is the fact that we are not lining our pockets with profit. We re-invest this money back into the industry and no one else does. CE has not yet become a profitable company. And it has been over 10 years since we were founded. CE is the ONLY company with an army of sales people actively approaching large fleets and convincing them to switch to CNG. We are the ONLY company who consitently lobbies all levels of goverment to support CNG. This is very capital intensive as well. When the OEMs re-enter the market, which they eventually will, it is because we have managed to show them there is sufficient sales volume to do so. This volume will come from the fleets we have secured. You consitently say we are gouging you and all of our customers, but in reality we are simply doing what all good companies do, we are taking money and re-investing it in the industry. You say the problem is competition, I wish someone would arrive to actively compete with us so that we are not always the first line of attack in ever single major market in the US. I think Questar is the ONLY utility which has done a good job in actively promoting this fuel in the US.

                        You are not being gouged, you are re-investing your money into the best energy bet the US currently has...NGVs.

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                        • #27
                          Re: CE to build first site in OK @ Will Rogers Airport

                          Great comments, everyone.
                          As this is Oklahoma-specific I am going to move this thread over to that forum.

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                          • #28
                            Re: CE to build first site in OK @ Will Rogers Airport

                            I can certainly promise you, that CNG will NEVER take off like it hasn't for your company for the last decade with this BS $2+ GGE price. You will single handedly KILL CNG. It was taking off with the price at 89 cents in OK a few years ago when regular gas was $2 a gal. People were complaining then about the gas price. You are charging more for CNG than people were switching off of gas for back then. T Boone is just hedging a bet that if people don't buy CNG, at least he can still stack his cash with all the regular fuel he trades in. If you don't want $4 CNG, try some $4 gasoline instead. Either way Pickens wins and the people are screwed. That is unacceptable. Even if you were charging say about $1.15 at least I could understand that. You keep talking re-investing, how is that going, you know with all the sales you are never going to get at that price. From what I was watching in another tread, it looks like you guys have the bases covered. Your company or Chesapeake apparently has Jeff Cloud at the corp. commission programmed with that BS rhetoric, so he will raise the rates for utilities to be more like those of CE. I moved away from OK because that state is so Good Ol' Boy corrupt it is pathetic. Everything either has to have Chesapeakes stamp of approval or Pickens or just won't happen in OK. BIG $$$ talks in Oklahoma. I am an OSU alumni, and I can say that damn stadium was the biggest waste of money I have ever seen. Closed a major street and eminent domained that properties around it just for the glorification of Pickens. How can people like that sleep at night. That crap makes me sick.

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                            • #29
                              Re: CE to build first site in OK @ Will Rogers Airport

                              I suppose I should stay out of this, but...

                              Aren't we being a bit hard on the poor Clean Energy guy? He isn't responsible for his company's pricing decisions (I assume).
                              Robert '07 GX

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                              • #30
                                Re: CE to build first site in OK @ Will Rogers Airport

                                Originally posted by mecklen View Post
                                I suppose I should stay out of this, but...

                                Aren't we being a bit hard on the poor Clean Energy guy? He isn't responsible for his company's pricing decisions (I assume).
                                True. I have no say, that power is reserved for the HQ folks. And many of your arguments have been made, and our prices may change at some point. I personally do, in fact, see your point and it is a good one. Lower prices drives demand. We certainly saw an increase in fleet interest when the oil prices when sky high. This is true for consumers too, and the larger the difference, the higher the interest.

                                As for your long tirades, you dont have to fuel up at a CE station if you dont want to. You're welcome not to. And you can tell everyone you know what you think of us. But there are thousands more people who I know who will tell them the opposite. This is a good company, run by good people, we are finding success in our model and we are not going to stop doing what we do because you dont agree with how we do business.

                                CE is an adaptable company though, I have no doubt we will change and modify over time. If we move more to the consumer market in a big way, that would change a lot. There may be a day when CE has both a fleet and consumer division, I don't really know. Just be aware of the fact that models like the ONG CNG sites, are not always sustainable. Recent raw commodity costs alone in OK are $1.50 per GGE and running large CNG facilities in a reliable fashion can get expensive when you have a full time staff to operate and maintain the sites. There is a difference when you come to a CE site and some people are willing to pay for that, even if you guys don't.

                                I wish you the best of luck with your own fueling choices. I'm still happy that you guys dig CNG.

                                PS. If I were killing CNG, my phone would not ring as much as it does, and my station engineering team would be much smaller and much less busy.
                                Last edited by Clean Energy - CO; 07-22-2008, 08:32 PM.

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