How does one get D.O.T approval?

[cngaz]

Re: How does one get D.O.T approval?

More than you think.
Every lot has to go through failure analysis
If a sample from a lot fails, the whole lot has to be destroyed
Check out the video on Murphy's site on cylinder testing.
www.cngmotors.com

[Idarusskie]

Re: How does one get D.O.T approval?

don't they all each and every one have to be hydro tested anyway? so what is the difference? Just see if there is an equivalent testing that can be done in country. That way you know they will pass at customs inspection.

[Curtis]

Re: How does one get D.O.T approval?

One issue with tank suppliers is that there are only 2 primary suppliers of carbon fiber cloth. With a war going, the demand has taxed their ability to supply demand.

Tanks using fiberglas were displayed at the Vegas show. This may become a cheaper option once they pass certification.

[Curtis]

Re: How does one get D.O.T approval?

I would check for regulations concerning the use of type 1 tanks in the application you are considering. You should have something akin to a dept of transportation where you are. And again, attempt to communicate your interests to the IANGV, or better yet, join theme. DOT regulations are probably listed online. You really need to start doing some deep research in your country, hook up with an importer/exporter and look for international tank manufacturers. A google search for cng cylinder manufacturers should be a starting place... start calling them.

[ajgiorgi]

Re: How does one get D.O.T approval?

You might not be able to import them into the country. I work at Fed Ex and certain items are not allowed to ship in and out of certain countries. Maybe I can ask my international agent if you have an idea where you want to buy. This would probably be the most important thing to find out. You got nothing if they're not allowed from other countries.

Let me know, PM me
Anthony

[Highmarker]

Re: How does one get D.O.T approval?

Uraijit,

Let me shed some light on the subject. I work for a company in Brigham City that is currently developing a CNG tank for production. This is the tank that Curtis was referring to that was on display in Las Vegas earlier this week. To sell tanks in the US, it must meet two specifications, NGV2 and DOT FMVSS 304. NGV2 supercedes DOT FMVSS 304 with the exception of a few tests. See the thread link below to a list of the tests required by NGV2.

http://www.cngchat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=845

With every lot of cylinders manufactured, each cylinder must be hydrotested to 1.5 times service pressure (5,400 psi for a 3,600 psi cylinder). Then one cylinder from each lot must be hydrostatically burst tested. In a nutshell, the burst pressure must be 2.25 times service pressure for carbon overwrapped vessels or 3.5 times service pressure for glass overwrapped vessels. Then one cylinder from each lot must be pressure cycled from 0 psi to 1.25 times service pressure (4,500 psi for a 3,600 psi cylinder) for a total of 15,000 cycles (for a 20 year life vessel). During the cycle test, the cylinder must not leak or fail. If a cylinder does not pass the burst test or the cycle test, the entire lot of cylinders is essentially scrap. The certification tests for these cylinders have to be performed by a DOT approved 3rd party inspection agency. The DOT lists these approved agencies on their website. The burst and cycle tests for each lot can be performed by the tank manufacturer, but have to be witnessed by the 3rd party inspection agency, if the tank manufacturer is not ISO 9000 certified.

Curtis is exactly right about the supply and demand for carbon fiber worldwide right now. Also the price of steel and aluminum have increased dramatically in the past few years.

[Idarusskie]

Re: How does one get D.O.T approval?

ya you would not want to ship a whole container load untested and have the whole load rejected.

[TheBundo]

Re: How does one get D.O.T approval?

What is the tank in my 2008 GX made of? I heard carbon fiber, now I hear "over-wrap" used as a term. Is it some metal with a wrap?

[cngmike]

Re: How does one get D.O.T approval?

I think is is a type 3 tank built by Luxfer. Aluminum with a full composite wrap.

[Curtis]

Re: How does one get D.O.T approval?

I think is is a type 3 tank built by Luxfer. Aluminum with a full composite wrap.

It is a type 3, but not a Luxfer. I've heard the manufacturers name but it escapes me now.

I introduced the head Luxfer guy to the head Honda guy in Vegas. Seems Luxfer has figured out how to take the tank out of the trunk, put it back under the car and add 4 gge in capacity... hmmm. Let's see what happens in the 2011 remake of the GX. I can't wait to see how this plays out.

[cnghal]

Re: How does one get D.O.T approval?

Ok newbies... take a deep breath and take one step back!!!!!
We all know it's frustrating, but understand that you just enlisted into a long running war because the "Axis of Evil" (The Big Three, The Oil Companies and OPEC) just dropped a $4 a gallon bomb in your driveway.
This industry has been around for quite a while, good and bad, up and down. Tank manufacturers have come and gone, especially since the OEMs pulled out of the business. Yes, other countries make CNG tanks just like other countries make affordable cars... remember the YUGO!!!!!!!
Before the natural gas industry, not the government, came up with the NGV98 regs, people were using DOT bottles, ASME vessels and some even used 2400psi oxygen bottles in vehicles and filled them to 3000psi or more. A lot of different hardware and fill recepticles (mostly hydraulic quick disconnects)were used.
The US is the only country that uses the 3600psi standard (more is better), which makes for a narrow cylinder market, also assuming that is, your station actually gives you that much pressure. I have personally filled at stations that still have 2400psi dispensers.
This industry has an excellent safety record. The only fatality came from people not following posted safety standards. An LA SuperShuttle driver, while fast-filling, turned a closed tank valve and paid the ultimate price.
The aftermarket, improperly installed (makeshift brackets), unshielded, battery acid damaged (from a prior rearend accident) tank was put back in service without proper inspection as posted on the side of that and all tanks.
I work with all types of cylinders on a daily basis. I have even slept on a 40 GGE/3600psi tank pack that I built and installed in my van per NFPA 52 specs and never lost a minute of sleep.
These safety regs are a very good thing. Please, don't think of going around them. I beg of you.

[cnghal]

Re: How does one get D.O.T approval?

Why does it have to be so hard?
Because anything worth doing is worth doing right! At least that's what the industry orginizations thought when they crafted these regs. One fatality in over 30 years, in the US. Sounds like "Government protecting us from ourselves" might acually be working for once.
Hard! How hard will it be to explain to 40 grieving parents that thier kids had to be incinerated and torn to shreads because it's to "hard" to make thier school buses clean and safe.

[Idarusskie]

Re: How does one get D.O.T approval?

its the light weight aluminum spin bottles that add to cost. Most of the tanks in these other countries I suspect are steel tanks.

[vaerge]

Re: How does one get D.O.T approval?

(...) Yes, other countries make CNG tanks just like other countries make affordable cars... remember the YUGO!!!!!!!

May I respectfully oppose to this insinuation that "other countries" (non-US) can only make low-quality cars. Toyota and Honda - two examples - are doing quite well in the US, to say the least, and they sure don't have big quality issues.

(...) NGV98 regs, people were using DOT bottles, ASME vessels and some even used 2400psi oxygen bottles in vehicles and filled them to 3000psi or more. A lot of different hardware and fill recepticles (mostly hydraulic quick disconnects)were used.
The US is the only country that uses the 3600psi standard (...)

Does this mean that it's in the NGV 2-2000 (now NGV 2-2007) that 3600 psi is defined?

Thanks in advance!

[cnghal]

Re: How does one get D.O.T approval?

Vaerge,
First, how about updating your profile to let us know where you are.

Point A: "May I respectfully oppose to this insinuation that "other countries" (non-US) can only make low-quality cars. Toyota and Honda - two examples - are doing quite well in the US, to say the least, and they sure don't have big quality issues. "

I'm sorry you translated the word "affordable" and the example of the Yugo( read "you get what you pay for") to mean "can only make low-quality cars."
I am also sorry you chose Toyota and Honda as examples since they both had a rocky start as japanese imports and are now(read: now that they are produced in the US) on top of the game and leading the pack. Example: New CEO of Ford, referring to Toyota as "Number 1" at the New York Auto Show.
BTW, I drive and convert Toyotas and owned a Mercedes Sprinter before diesel went insane.

Point B: The industry organizations proactively set in place and maintain, a set of standards to protect the unsuspecting general public from an all to real "clear and present danger", wether they're '98, '00' or 2007, 3000psi or 3600psi is of no matter. They are AGA/ANSI NGV2 and USDOT FMVSS 304 and not ISO.

In summary, my motivation is to avoid the realization of my waking nightmare:
Cheap Chinese, garbage steel, lead painted, type 1 and 2 ISO cylinders being sold at WalMart!!!!!