Dryer for Phill.............

[Green Cars]

Question members, What would you all suggest I do with a customer that has utility gas and a Phill. The gas coming from the utility is wet, the Phill is drying it, but I'm afraid it might over work it. They have fixed the moist gas going to the house, but there is no doubt still moisture in the lines. Can and how do you suggest I advise my customer to DRY the gas before it goes into the house? The utility company is willing to put a dryer in the house, but they know nothing about the Phill. I was told you can't hook a dryer to a Phill, but I believe that nothing is impossible. The Phill dryer I think is not going to be able to do the job after a few more months. What say YOU?

Any Help would be MUCH APPRECIATED...........The customer is afraid to fill the car.

[Eric Rosenberg]

Re: Dryer for Phill.............

Andrew,

Before the local govenment agceny issued a permit and PHILL was installed ,the authorized FuelMaker installer should have been out to "size up" the installation (develop an estimate) and measure the quality of the gas.... If it was not up to spec for Phill they should have advised the customer of the quality issues and not installed the machine.

That said, if at the time the gas was within spec and the machine has been working properly and you have concerns about the long term viaiblity of the machine you or the customer sould contact Paula Hebert of IMPCO (the firm that purchased FuelMaker) at [email protected]. She is there fielding all FuelMaker related questions while IMPCO works to bring their line of refueling equipment back to the market.

Thank you,



Eric

[Green Cars]

Re: Dryer for Phill.............

We have done that already, the gas was fine at point of install, but the gas company since contracted a well incorporated into the utility gas line that was very moist??????? (didn't know gas companies did that????) They have since broke the contract with that supplier, but their concern is that there is moisture still in the lines. The gas company is taking full responsibility for the moister in the gas.

Some installers say that you can't put a dryer before a Phill unit, I (as you know) tend not to take the first NO someone tells me because most people are either lazy or worried about liability. I am a DO WHAT IT TAKES person. I keep doing and working till the result is what I want. If we can launch a man into space 40 years ago and send video back, we can get dry gas to a car...........it just sounds to easy, but nobody want's to take that step. STEPS is how we came up with the GX, FCX Clarity, Insight, EV and Asamo. Nobody can tell me it's impossible, someone just has to have the balls to do it. I am an Optimist.

I was told I would never sell GX's, well I proved them wrong 40 times over. I don't like the word "CAN'T!" I have a willing utility company wanting to solve a problem, surely there is someone out there who is willing to help. Increase the size of the pipe going to Phill, increase the pressure......what ever.

[Eric Rosenberg]

Re: Dryer for Phill.............

Phill was not designed to pump well gas... Please contact Paula to resolve your concerns about the Phill at your customer's home.

[Green Cars]

Re: Dryer for Phill.............

Eric,

It's not gas well gas, it's utility gas from a large Ohio Utility and for the life of me I can't understand why they use RAW gas from wells to supply their customers with gas???? I and the customer didn't know this until we discovered a moisture leak. I don't know if I can mention the name of the company on a sight, but lets say it sounds very much like Columbus...........

I asked them why they are taking gas from the ground and shoving it into peoples homes??? They didn't have an answer. Dominion doesn't do that, they refine their gas..............So that is why they are willing to supply the customer with DRY gas for their transportation needs. That is why I have to JUMP on this ASAP while the topic is still HOT!

~Andrew

[Eric Rosenberg]

Re: Dryer for Phill.............

Andrew,

In the second sentence of the your first paragraph in your last post, you state that they take RAW gas from WELLS and insert in into their customer's gas line. You are describing WELL gas that has not been filtered (cleaned) and dried. It's well gas.... the customer might not be out in the country and this might not be their own well on their property own but the principal is the same. The gas is crap.

Phill was NOT intended to run on well gas.

Please contact Paula Hebert, as you've been encouraged on more than one occassion, to resolve this service and performance issue.

Thank you.

[Green Cars]

Re: Dryer for Phill.............

Eric,

You're not getting it, sorry I'm not being clear. Columbia gas, a well known gas company is using well gas unbeknownst to the customer, me and the installer. Now that we have discovered this, they are scrambling to fix it. Now I KNOW Dominion cleans, drys and refines their gas, why this company doesn't do that is a mystery to me? I questioned the man I am working with at the gas company to move this forward, he can't give me a time when the moisture will be out of the lines, that is why I am demanding a dryer to be installed at the customers home because this is not the fault of anyone but the Gas Company.

I hope that is more clear Eric, I guess we are not as controlled as the California governments shadow is over everything, the one thing I wish was a little more watched over is not, instead they watch everything else LOL!

I think I told you last year I sold 2 GX's to a guy that had a gas well on his property, I would not order the cars for him unless he used utility gas for his Phill unit, he was up set with me that I wouldn't sell him the cars per-say. I told him that their are regulations, guide lines, that the gas has to be refined, dried and utility quality gas has to be used if a Phill unit is installed.

Turns out his neighbor worked for this company we are dealing with now, he told my customer I was full of {Removed by staff} and didn't know what I was talking about. That the company just takes the gas from the ground and scents it, then sends it right to your house, they don't refine it, clean it, dry it or anything. I argued with the guy for 2 weeks, sent him pages of information about natural gas refineries and how gas companies refine the Natural Gas, I had Paula send me stuff to give to him. I even called my people at Dominion and THEY explained to me the whole process.

The guy thought I was INSANE, he said I was stupid and didn't know what I was talking about and should just stick to selling cars. He went on and on about his friend, so I spoke with his friend and he told me the same thing. He canceled his order and I refunded him the deposits.

Well Eric, I guess the Neighbor of this guy was RIGHT about at least THIS company and I was wrong. So now I know. All my other customers have Dominion and haven't had a problem, but at this point I need to solve the problem at hand for this customer.

Sorry for the long story, but I thought it was relevant to the problem at hand.

~Andrew

[cngmike]

Re: Dryer for Phill.............

Check with a local air compressor company. Tell them you are looking for a drier with Molecular Sieve Desiccant. You will have to change the sieve out at least every 100 hours. you will also want a fine particulate filter between that and the Fuelmaker. Vanair comes to mind. http://www.vanairsystems.com/index.html

[Green Cars]

Re: Dryer for Phill.............

cngmike

WOW! Thanks, I will look into it. Can you elaborate on >>> "You will have to change the sieve out at least every 100 hours" I'm curious to here it...........I'm not sure what you mean if you can go into a bit more detail. Thanks.

~Andrew

[cngmike]

Re: Dryer for Phill.............

The seive will get saturated with moisture. You can dry it by putting it into an oven above 250F. for about 30 minutes. The Thing you will have to figure out is how often you will have to either replace or dry the seive. This will depend on how wet your gas is. The stations I operated had high pressure outlet dryer cartridges. The cartridges had a witness strip to tell me when the reached saturation I found the average time was 100 hours of compressor run time. I had them reach saturation in as little as 20 minutes one time when So Cal Gas was pulling out of underground storage. The Phill has an onboard dryer you will be pre drying to help extended the life of that dryer. The seive will have a fine dust in it and you will want to keep that from going through your compressor and engine.

[raskell]

Re: Dryer for Phill.............

cngmike

WOW! Thanks, I will look into it. Can you elaborate on >>> "You will have to change the sieve out at least every 100 hours" I'm curious to here it...........I'm not sure what you mean if you can go into a bit more detail. Thanks.

~Andrew

I have a molecular seive at my home, even though I have the 'other' Ohio natural gas supplier, just to be safe. I would think it could be set up after the meter and just before gas enters the home. This allows you to keep the largest diameter line inlet and not restrict the overall flow rate. (You know my lines are dry because you just changed the filters on my GX.)

I would recommend starting with a singel stage first and see how long it takes to saturate the finer seive media. Depending on how that works, one could always add a 'coarser' first stage then the molecular seive as a final dry. I can send you a photo if you'd like or I can stop by. Our mutual contact in Newark has the things pre-fabbed and ready to install. I know that his two stage set-up works on raw (wet) well gas directly so it certainly will work on 'moist' residential gas.

I would not want to 'Phill' my car at home knowing that the gas was wet. That is asking for tank/filter problems for sure.

[Gerben]

Re: Dryer for Phill.............

I'd use a condenser dryer like they use for high pressure breathing air. That's much easier, because it requires much less maintenance. It dries the gas sufficiently for Phill (and automotive application). Phill is not the only problem; your car is also at risk.

[OffenbarEnergy]

Re: Dryer for Phill.............

regarding the gas quality for the vehical,
having designed several hundred gas dryers for the industry, i point out there are very few places in america where the commercial natural gas meets NGV Standards,,let alone a grade of nat gas that is inferior to this.. in most cases, gas in a pipeline can arrive from many sources,and therefore the quality may alter during seasons, or based on production from suppliers,
the NGV gas quality needed is a function of storage pressure, and ambient temperature. the gas needs to be at a dewpoint less humid by 10'f (refers to pressure dewpoint) at pressure and ambient-storage temperature, ..hence the adoption of standard SAE J1616.

in america the dryest gas is 2-4 lbs / H20 mmscf, and at 3000 psi, even 35-40'f can be a problem , due to the joules thompson-decompression effect,
It is very common, and in most cases necessary to dry the gas before the Phill unit,,and any other compressor for cng,, Fuelmaker purchased many dryers to package with their units,
for home refuel,,the dryer need not dry the gas at the entrance of the house-building, only at the inlet to the compressor, this eliminates drying gas that heats the house, not neccesary or effective if a mole sieve dryer is used
a mole sieve cng gas dryer will successfully dry gas to meet the needed standard. the mole sieve dryer becomes saterated based on 3 criteria, flow/volume of gas,,wetness of gas,and amount of mole sieve,..some quick questions that need answering, how wet is the gas, and how cold will it get in your area. storage pressure you will already know.
regenerating mole sieve in an oven (unless this an outside oven )..is less desired, as the gas contains mercaptan-odourant..stinks., ..as well,,, unless properly purged, may still constitute a fire hazard as it may contain sufficient natural gas to ignite, needing less than 3% concentration, and the source of heat or ignition..
i would be happy to answer or give more detail if needed,
Gordon / OFFENBARENERGY

[Amfuel]

Re: Dryer for Phill.............

Good info Gordon.

The Phill's regenerative dryer is designed to reduce the moisture content of line gas to less than 2 pounds of moisture per mmcu/ft and the regeneration cycle is every 8 hours of run time so it is regenerating about every 4 gge. The national average is 7 pounds moisture per mmcu/ft.

If the wet gas is found to be way more than the national average an appropriate sized (small in the residential case) dryer may be added to the line. Some cartridge dryers have a window or other method to show the condition of the media so it is not a guessing game.

It is best to have an external dryer at the highest possible pressure for efficiency. So having it at the service entrance would be useful as in a typical residential location 2 psi inlet before regulating to 7"wc (1/4psi) for equipment use pressure. Over the years (30) in domestic, commercial and industrial service I have seen the wet gas causing rust issues in applications used around the industries whether it is the degradation of the metals or the other build up issues.

Note that wet gas likey has higher adultrants in addition to the moisture. IE: the ethanes, sulphur compounds, etc

[OffenbarEnergy]

Re: Dryer for Phill.............

hi AMfuel and other fellow readers
i believe we agree that dry gas eliminates the undesired effects that the colder weather and refuelling brings,
for reference, even the larger stations found at LAMTA (ex-hanover design ) and OCTA (trillium stations) in souther california use dryers, the gas desired at the outlet of these systems is nearer 0.5 lbs mmscf..these were bigger dryers, rated 3000 to 6500 scfm, with the storage pressure at 3600-4200 psig , slightly higher than that of a Phill system, ,,
the industry is and should be concerned about the wetter gas residing within onboard storage, gas at 2-3 lbs mmscf will allow condensates to form , at lower temperatures, allowing the cylinders to corrode from within,
Gordon / Offenbar Energy