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  • Developing alternative VRAs

    Gerben,

    Budget is not even really my consideration yet. I need to locate a double acting double ended hydralic ram with the proper mounting. Motors, pumps and sensors are easily located. The ultimate goal is to get it all for less than the price of an FMQ 2-36. I am just looking for parts and prices now. Lots of time on the phone talking to suppliers of this stuff so far.

    A friend of mine has an orchard and does farm equipment repair. I can get him to weld up the frame and get the steel delivered for me. A hydraulic unit is always going to be heavy and I am OK with the weight. Can be stood on end for footprint reduction.

    Right now I want to know how much the moving parts will be. A PLC will be used to control the unit, I have a little Aromat unit I used for something else and I think it will do just fine. That is about $700 with an extra I/O module and power supply. I figure I need about 14 to 16 I/O ports and it only has 8 to 12 depending on the model. A couple of limit switches, at least 2 pressure switches, one to operate the PLC input and a fail safe at say 3800 that will kill the input power relay, do not need any tank failures. Temp sensors and a few other things. I would like to use a fuel inlet sensor system but will deal with that a little later in the build.


    Does anyone know what the max flow rate on a standard US home NG meter and regulator is in cu/ft. Anywhere around 6 maybe???? We know it will support in excess of 3 as my FMQ and all the heat for the back room is easily handled right now and I would guess that to be 4 at peak in the winter with the pump, heat, water heater, and dryer running.

    Here is a link to the boosters I found that are CNG rated. They run on air so I will toss the air motor out and replace it with a ram. The units as pictured are about $4000 each. I need to get a spec sheet on the units this Monday.

    http://www.maxprotech.com/maxpro-sec...ndex.php?id=23

    Dave

  • #2
    Re: FuelMaker bankruptcy

    Originally posted by Dave Fox View Post
    Does anyone know what the max flow rate on a standard US home NG meter and regulator is in cu/ft. Anywhere around 6 maybe???? We know it will support in excess of 3 as my FMQ and all the heat for the back room is easily handled right now and I would guess that to be 4 at peak in the winter with the pump, heat, water heater, and dryer running.
    I'm not in the US, but my meter does 6 m3/hr (about 2 GGE/hr). It should be written on your meter.

    Why build your own compressor from scratch when the same company supplies complete systems?

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: FuelMaker bankruptcy

      Originally posted by Gerben View Post
      Why build your own compressor from scratch when the same company supplies complete systems?
      Because the a vra is NOT available from the company. And IF they ever do go into production , the stated plan of the company is to sell as a package with the proposed 3 wheel Eco-Fueler , for about $20K U.S.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: FuelMaker bankruptcy

        Gerben,

        Those units are driven by air, 100scfm at 100psi plus. A monumentally huge compressor. Noisey!!!!! I just want the compression portions. It may save me from machining and designing from scratch. And as I mentind before, they are already CNG compatible. They also require enormous gas inlet pressures to get the amount of boost, 100psi or more at the inlet. Too get 3GGE I need at least 900cu/in per minute (6scfm is 864 cu/in). That is at about 4 to 6 strokes per minute.

        Slow means longer times between service. Crazzi was concerned with heat on the boost in a 2 stage, I will most likely have to coil a length of tube and put a fan on it to cool it, both stages. I notice that my FMQ gets warm at the end of a 4 hour cycle at the connector, warm enough that in the summer it will be just outright hot? Sounds very reasonable to me.

        It is a time thing for me. I have about 3 hours a day, and I am at work today! As soon as I can get specs on throw and diameter I will know more. This is a place to start. I think I can do the complete hydraulic package for around $5000 with compression units, less electronics. Maybe less, perhaps a little more. I suspect the compression units will be at least $1500 each.

        Compression ratio is a big thing with this. I would like to do it in 2 stages but that may require custom sized cylinders for both. I will call them again Monday and get them to send me the pdf file on them. I am hoping they have 1 really large 180 to 200 cu/in and 1 small one in the 10 to 20 cu/in range. The guy I spoke with pretty was free with info so I will talk to him again. As I figure it at least 20psi after the first stage. If I can get a 5" to 6" cylinder with a 12" stroke for the first stage I can get that out of it as long as the piston will run within 1/4" of the end. I will get my friend to figure that out since he does this stuff all day at work. Got to get from 1/4 psi to at least 10. More is better.

        Dave

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: FuelMaker bankruptcy

          Originally posted by Lakewood90712 View Post
          Because the a vra is NOT available from the company. And IF they ever do go into production , the stated plan of the company is to sell as a package with the proposed 3 wheel Eco-Fueler , for about $20K U.S.
          At what ouput? Was it 1GGE or a little less as I recall?

          Dave

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Developing alternative VRAs

            I have meters on my web site to buy, www.tulsagastech.com look under the fuelmaker Icon

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Developing alternative VRAs

              Hi Dave,
              I have just registered with this site and while reading the FuelMaker forum I came across your postings about you wanting to design and build your own compressor.
              As the “former” engineering manager for the HRA, and having “intimate” knowledge of every detail of its development and design, I feel compelled to warn you that there are “life threatening” risks associated with your experimentation.
              Every component and system must have a back-up…. Pressure transducers do latch-up, PRV’s do fail, and Controllers do hang.
              Any one of these failures (along with hundreds of others) may result in tank over-pressurization, or a catastrophic mechanical failure.
              When-ever we did our over-pressurization tests; we performed them in a secured evacuated area, in a Bunker, buried in sand, while hiding behind the building, far far away…
              Imagine Spaghetti… that is what ¼” Stainless Steel tubing looks like when something fails, and that is just a minor component, if something major fails, well, you don’t even want to think about it, you will have many sleepless nights..
              BTW, have you thought of how you are going to remove the water from the gas? Having a Water Slug form in the 3rd or 4th stage in pretty nasty..
              I know that Honda has left many of you stranded, and I will do whatever I can to help.
              I will continue reading through all of the posts over the next few days, and I will immediately respond when-ever I see a potential Safety Risk being taken.
              For any “technical” questions about any of the FuelMaker compressors, please feel free to message me and I will try to help where I can.
              And a reminder, PLEASE everybody be careful…
              Tracey Demaline

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Developing alternative VRAs

                LOL, yeah, as I tell my granddaughter, its a biggabaddaboom. I built my first one on a recipe I found in India when they were using big "balloons" as fuel tanks. The compression part is easy, getting it to compress evenly without the H2O is tricky as CH4 compresses easily, but the water...stupid thermodynamics.
                Last edited by John Mitton; 04-28-2009, 09:29 PM.
                2009 GX
                2000 K2500
                2002 Cavalier
                1998 Contour
                Phill powered by solar power

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Developing alternative VRAs

                  http://cngchat.com/forum/showthread....hlight=gallons

                  This was mentioned last year as na alternative to FM's

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Developing alternative VRAs

                    That would be cool, except it's illegal to store CNG at a residencial home.
                    2009 GX
                    2000 K2500
                    2002 Cavalier
                    1998 Contour
                    Phill powered by solar power

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Developing alternative VRAs

                      OK I'll bite. If its illegal to store NG at home, why can you park a CNG car in your garage?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Developing alternative VRAs

                        Originally posted by CH-4 View Post
                        That would be cool, except it's illegal to store CNG at a residencial home.
                        I think in the netherlands you can do it, if you store the gas in the vehicle and get the vehicle approved. Same as the Phill: you cannot use the Phill at home to fill a storage container either.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Developing alternative VRAs

                          So what is the difference between an 'approved' pressure vessel in a car in a garage and an approved pressure vessel in the garage? Presumably I can have a propane tank at home, or welding gas.
                          Last edited by Sulthane; 04-30-2009, 05:43 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Developing alternative VRAs

                            Does anyone know what the max flow rate on a standard US home NG meter and regulator is in cu/ft. Anywhere around 6 maybe???? We know it will support in excess of 3 as my FMQ and all the heat for the back room is easily handled right now and I would guess that to be 4 at peak in the winter with the pump, heat, water heater, and dryer running.

                            Here is a link to the boosters I found that are CNG rated. They run on air so I will toss the air motor out and replace it with a ram. The units as pictured are about $4000 each. I need to get a spec sheet on the units this Monday.

                            http://www.maxprotech.com/maxpro-sec...ndex.php?id=23

                            Average meter flow is a big variable. I'm in the public gas business and our standard meter is a 250 size at 7" water collum . that mean it can handle 250000 BTU or 250 MCF pass through. Each supplier has there preffered size depending on location higher use areas like the north east might be a 400.
                            There are some 200 sizes out there. What you have also on your gas service determines the meter set and the pressure they give you. If you have a pool heater, back up generator, furnance, HW heater, stove, you get a bigger meter, and or 5 pounds coming out of the meter. Suppliers will upgrade meters for 5 pounds which can help in reduce cost on compression maybe, some will go to 10 pounds.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Developing alternative VRAs

                              Good question, but it's mainly written into the fire code. Vehicles have apparent design protection to the tank and they're mobile, where a storage tank may not. The same applys to gasoline; by law you're not supposed to store more than 10 gallons of gasoline at home either. Also there's about 2800 psi difference between a BBQ tank and a CNG storage tank.
                              Last edited by CH-4; 04-30-2009, 08:08 AM.
                              2009 GX
                              2000 K2500
                              2002 Cavalier
                              1998 Contour
                              Phill powered by solar power

                              Comment

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