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How does the Phill remanufacturing program work?

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  • How does the Phill remanufacturing program work?

    Here it is, directly from Fuelmaker.
    Attached Files
    [ATTACH=CONFIG]temp_4586_1441434431016_578[/ATTACH]

  • #2
    Re: How does the Phill remanufacturing program work?

    Nice how they don't mention the ADDITIONAL $200-$500 deinstall/install fee that the Fuelmaker dealer will charge to remove and reinstall the Phill and the $300 for shipping.
    -------------
    moore101
    2000 Toyota Camry CNG
    FuelMaker Phill v1.0

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: How does the Phill remanufacturing program work?

      Duh!...........
      And electricity just comes out of the wall.

      We all have expectations and none of them are free.

      How should I say this, some of the people I run into think a FuelMaker dealer
      is a welfare agent, we're here to keep you in gas, but heaven forbid it should cost anything. We love this business and all the reasons to support it, but we're not a government agency, we still have to eat, pay the bills, insurance. mortgage, etc. the same as everyone else.
      Thats why you already have qualified people that will only touch commercial fueling and not home fueling or Phill. We try to take care of everyone the best we can, but some of you do not make it easy or a profitable venture.
      And realistically as much as we would support this cause for free if we could,
      No profit means we're out of business. Sorry to rag on you. Staying in this business at times has been a real challenge, especially with no incentives in Arizona.
      Dave Clement

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: How does the Phill remanufacturing program work?

        Originally posted by cngaz View Post
        Duh!...........
        And electricity just comes out of the wall.

        We all have expectations and none of them are free.

        How should I say this, some of the people I run into think a FuelMaker dealer
        is a welfare agent, we're here to keep you in gas, but heaven forbid it should cost anything. We love this business and all the reasons to support it, but we're not a government agency, we still have to eat, pay the bills, insurance. mortgage, etc. the same as everyone else.
        Thats why you already have qualified people that will only touch commercial fueling and not home fueling or Phill. We try to take care of everyone the best we can, but some of you do not make it easy or a profitable venture.
        And realistically as much as we would support this cause for free if we could,
        No profit means we're out of business. Sorry to rag on you. Staying in this business at times has been a real challenge, especially with no incentives in Arizona.
        I personally do not expect anything for free as I'm sure most people don't. I DO expect to be charged reasonable rates, and $325 to uninstall/reinstall a Phill is out of line given it takes less than an hour for 1 person to do the work. I also expect a maufacturer brochure describing a program (re-built Phill purchase) to include all RELEVANT costs. It is undisputable that $325 uninstall+$300 shipping totaling $625 is a significant and relevant cost givent the remanufactured Phill costs $2000. The $625 represents a 30% increase in cost that is not disclosed and should be. Anyway, If you can offer a logical explanation as to why HVAC type work (installing a Phill) should be charged at $325/hour, please do, I would love to hear there is another reason besides Phill installers taking advantage of their customers. I hope I'm not too harsh in this response, if I appear that way, I apologize. I'm just fed up with what so far to me appears to be a price gouging practice by Phill installers and Fuelmaker in dealing with customers.
        Adrian
        Adrian

        Navy 2008 Civic GX (wife's)
        Silver 2012 Toyota Prius
        Grey 2012 Civic Natural Gas (mine)

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: How does the Phill remanufacturing program work?

          I hope none of my Arizona cutomers feel that way, I have no experience with prices or installers in California. As well as I really have no power over FuelMakers Corporate decisions. We do try to give them as much input as we can.
          Dave Clement

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: How does the Phill remanufacturing program work?

            (Note to Dave, I don't include you in the following. You've done more for CNG than any "normal" installer.)

            Why apologize, we all know that most, if not all, of the California Phill installers rip off the consumer, they're plumbers after all and not much different than HVAC installers when it comes to pricing

            When an installer want more than a $1,000 to install an outdoor unit when the power and gas line are already right at the unit you know it's a rip off.
            John

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: How does the Phill remanufacturing program work?

              Dave, if I may ask, does FM give you guys a pricing structure or are you on your own? It seems that, as a plumber, electrician, or even General Contractor, you have an hourly rate, which is fairly lucrative and reasonable. It just seems that once the word Phill is uttered, the pricing structure goes out the window. The installers (not all) seem to want you to pay for the 10 install quotes they didn't land, but might have if they charged the customer the same thing they would to do a water heater, or stove, or gas dryer install... is it so different?

              This is what everyone is so up in arms about this. I've seen install quotes of $4500, $2500 and many in between. That is insane. Why, and how, could it cost more to install than to buy? Even if the gas and electricity were at the street it shouldn't cost that much, and these were on the opposite side of the house. I suspect the installer didn't want to go into the attic, or under the house and just priced himself out of the job intentionally. Ethically, he should just say "I'd rather not do this install" rather than piss off another customer. I really don't understand... these guys are in attics all the time... why would this be any different? Help us understand why, if we pull the permit, get the gas and electric stubbed out and serve you tea and crumpets, should this quick install cost more than $300?

              I had a local installer quoting everyone $1600, no matter the work involved. I sold a GX to an electrician, whose brother was a plumber. He went ballistic when he got a quote. I got him certified and my bids went down by $600-$1100 per job.
              [ATTACH=CONFIG]temp_4586_1441434431016_578[/ATTACH]

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: How does the Phill remanufacturing program work?

                None of my customers pull permits if we can help it. We do everything from start to finish, except the gas meter.
                I am the only installer in Arizona and I do all my own work, I have an electrician I use if the electric is more than 10' away. I run my own gas pipe, I have ocassionaly used a plumbing company, but have not been real impressed with the attention to detail either.
                As far as I know, I am the only contractor in Arizona with a NGV fueling equipment specific contractors license.
                Before Phill we were the authorized dealer for Arizona, and when Phill came out we agreed to continue covering the whole state because quality and consistancy in service to the customer are important to us.
                I think a dealer will show more care than an installer, get it in and the installers are done with you. We want a long term relationship, thats how we believe we grow our business. I think we do charge a premium and a quality installation will take several trips out, from site review to test and start up after the gas meter is set. Sometimes 2 or 3 trips on a permit depending whether you are dealing with newbies or old timers at city hall. Sometimes the travel time will be 4 or 5 times the installation time.
                FuelMaker gives us a price list for their equipment, our charges for everything else are up to us, but they do ask us to submit the installation cost on each unit to them. I do not have a clue how they figure it in CA, since I've always approached it from a dealers perspective, I'm going to spend time with a new customer, not as an installer.
                Dave Clement

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: How does the Phill remanufacturing program work?

                  Originally posted by Adrian View Post
                  I personally do not expect anything for free as I'm sure most people don't. I DO expect to be charged reasonable rates, and $325 to uninstall/reinstall a Phill is out of line given it takes less than an hour for 1 person to do the work. I also expect a maufacturer brochure describing a program (re-built Phill purchase) to include all RELEVANT costs. It is undisputable that $325 uninstall+$300 shipping totaling $625 is a significant and relevant cost givent the remanufactured Phill costs $2000. The $625 represents a 30% increase in cost that is not disclosed and should be. Anyway, If you can offer a logical explanation as to why HVAC type work (installing a Phill) should be charged at $325/hour, please do, I would love to hear there is another reason besides Phill installers taking advantage of their customers. I hope I'm not too harsh in this response, if I appear that way, I apologize. I'm just fed up with what so far to me appears to be a price gouging practice by Phill installers and Fuelmaker in dealing with customers.
                  Adrian
                  You go Adrian! Yes it is outragous that a contractor charges more than $100 an hour for a Phill install. Mine was $2000 for just a gas line tap and 20' run of pipe under my house (raised foundation) into the garage. The electrical was already done by me. If I move I will be de-installing and reinstalling the unit myself.

                  WAKE UP FUELMAKER and see that your CA "installers" are hurting your company image and pissing off your potential and current customers. You will stay a small foreign company with your crappy customer relations and non-competitive business practices. It almost seems like you do not want to succeed in the United States.
                  -------------
                  moore101
                  2000 Toyota Camry CNG
                  FuelMaker Phill v1.0

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: How does the Phill remanufacturing program work?

                    You have a different situation than Ca. Here the customer calls FM directly to purchase. They send an installer. There are no "Dealers" that I'm aware of.

                    The reason so many customers do the permitting, plumbing and electric prior to the installers arrival is to keep the costs reasonable, assuming that $1500 to hang the unit, plug it in and connect the gas line could be called reasonable. Start up, check for gas leaks and you are done. Keep in mind that, for the most part, you travel the state, and these guys travel less than 30 miles in most cases.

                    I can see the issue with the city, been there-done that, for my station. But it's actually easier for a homeowner to get a permit to install a gas appliance than it is for a contractor, assuming it's not the first one they've (the city) seen, and the homeowner isn't an idiot.

                    For the record, ngv owners seem to have the highest average IQ of any type of vehicle owner I've encountered, so this shouldn't be an issue. It just seems that in Ca the installers act as if they have you by the short-hairs and they know it. They act like they have a monopoly, which they do... It's CE all over again!

                    All I ask, Dave, is for you to move to California. That should solve the problem.
                    [ATTACH=CONFIG]temp_4586_1441434431016_578[/ATTACH]

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: How does the Phill remanufacturing program work?

                      I don't know if I would like living in CA from the sounds of it.
                      You are talking about the amount we get for the whole job.
                      Not just hanging the Phill on the wall.
                      Back on topic-
                      I do think the new policy of replacing a defective Phill is more cost effective than 2 visits with a loaner and coming back to put back in the origional unit. Really should be able to accomplish within 2 hours + shipping.
                      Same with a reman unit, 1 visit, replace and be done, and it turns into a rotation, the same as we do with the VRA compressors.
                      Last edited by cngaz; 04-29-2008, 10:07 AM.
                      Dave Clement

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: How does the Phill remanufacturing program work?

                        Why can't we do it ourseves again? i know how to lay pipe i know how to sweat the pipes if they are copper. i know how to do the electricity. and forget about me paying 1,000 for some guy to come over and tell me that it looks good. no offense tom. but it seems like to me if you can do it yourself why not lie to the repair men and say that you just bought it from online? of course it is illegal but so are alot of things that we get away with here in okie land. just some of my views from the cheap side.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: How does the Phill remanufacturing program work?

                          Don't confuse cheap with safe. There are considerations with pipe size vrs length to maintain pressure for things like your water heaters pilot light at start up, city codes, that sort of things. With all due respect, home made electrical and gas plumbing, even though you can sweat a pipe, is regulated for a reason. Please put your family's safety above the dollar.

                          I'm sure you probably have enough knowledge to do it safely, but this puts ideas into minds that may not be as knowledgeable as your... next thing you know, some redneck, somewhere will make the papers cuz he blew himself up. We need all the good press we can get. We don't need that kind. Tackle it if you must... just don't share it with us. We seem to live in a "monkey see-monkey" do world.

                          And I don't want to hear it about the redneck remark... I am one.
                          [ATTACH=CONFIG]temp_4586_1441434431016_578[/ATTACH]

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: How does the Phill remanufacturing program work?

                            but how long does it take to get certified to install and uninstall these units i would be more than happy to do it. i don't know how much tom charges here in OK but all that competition can do is make it better.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: How does the Phill remanufacturing program work?

                              Liability Insurance
                              Business License
                              FuelMaker Training
                              Contractors license if you plan to install new units.

                              There is a link you can click on about becoming an installer at-
                              http://www.myphill.com/files/seekinginstaller.pdf
                              Last edited by cngaz; 04-30-2008, 08:57 AM.
                              Dave Clement

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