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Whats the deal with non EPA conversions?

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  • Leetness Monster
    replied
    Re: Whats the deal with non EPA conversions?

    How legal are "fogging" kits; as opposed to direct injection? I had one installed by a certified mechanic at their shop.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Whats the deal with non EPA conversions?

    Originally posted by Highmarker View Post
    rtry9a,

    Consider what John said as a warning. Sorry, but rules are rules (even if the EPA wrote them). If you want persue installing an illegal kit that is your decision, however, do not promote it here on CNGChat (you will be banned).

    I understand your frustration with EPA certified kits. I wish the EPA was more relaxed on the requirements for certifying CNG kits too. Maybe that's were we should focus some of our energy towards them and not sit here and complain about non-EPA certified kits.
    Dave is right. The EPA is watching what is happening in this market segment and the last thing I am going to do is see this public forum get caught up in the inevitable crack-down.

    Galileo is a huge company. If they want to play in this market they can get their kit certified with the EPA - especially if what you say is true that the OBDII will function with full OEM features post-conversion.

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  • John Mitton
    replied
    Re: Whats the deal with non EPA conversions?

    We routinely get these exemptions from EPA for our test vehicles at NaturalDrive. No fees whatsoever and the turn-around is about one week unless EPA needs more information from us. I have never asked for more than 6 months as we can usually get a certification done in that timeframe.

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  • younkin
    replied
    Re: Whats the deal with non EPA conversions?

    John, have you known of someone who used one of these exemptions? How much do they cost and how long could they last? It looks like originally they were for imported vehicles that didn 't have EPA Certs. BTW did you see Jacks Bill? Jim

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  • dogshed
    replied
    Re: Whats the deal with non EPA conversions?

    Originally posted by John Mitton View Post
    You get an on-road testing exemption for a reasonable timeframe for your test vehicle(s). See attached from EPA as to how this is done.
    Wow. You can modify your car for "reasons of national security".

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  • John Mitton
    replied
    Re: Whats the deal with non EPA conversions?

    You get an on-road testing exemption for a reasonable timeframe for your test vehicle(s). See attached from EPA as to how this is done.
    Attached Files

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  • larrycng
    replied
    Re: Whats the deal with non EPA conversions?

    Originally posted by dogshed View Post
    How do the legal conversion companies develop their kits?
    Do they only drive it in the parking lot until they get it approved?
    Do they get some kind of engineering and experimentation waver?
    Certification generally require a lot of Dyno, 5 gas work, and "bag tests" using the various EPA certification Dyne tests. You to pass the EPA tests, so why not use their tests for development. Yea, there are runs on the road to determine it the conversion will perform in real life.

    larrycng

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  • CraziFuzzy
    replied
    Re: Whats the deal with non EPA conversions?

    I'm pretty sure it's mostly through waivers.

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  • dogshed
    replied
    Re: Whats the deal with non EPA conversions?

    How do the legal conversion companies develop their kits?
    Do they only drive it in the parking lot until they get it approved?
    Do they get some kind of engineering and experimentation waver?

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Whats the deal with non EPA conversions?

    Yep, all the good of CNG that was happening in last couple years is now dying under the last few days of the WORST President in history (that's what his nickname "W" stands for) with both the Utah PSC and the EPA coming down on cng - - - the ONLY clean fuel that USA should be using for next 10 to 15 years!!

    As for EPA, their new moniker is: E-methaneization Proclamation Assassination !!! Yep on this inauguration of the first black President in USA history, we the cng community are enduring our own struggles put in play by Bush Jr ("W" - - ie Worst President Ever) and all his cronies like Halliburton VP Cheney and their stupid friends in Big 3 automakers and Big Oil.

    Time for TRANSPORTATION REVOLUTION and boycott anything that GM, Ford, Dodge, Toyota, Nissan, EPA, Dept of Energy, Big Oil, etc. want to do or promote . . . UNLESS it includes massive investment in cng infrastructure, massive investment in CONVERSION (based on GLOBAL safety standards determined by industry) etc. so that cng has fighting chance of remaining low cost fuel for the masses rather than puppet on a string for people in power to yank around when they feel threatened that Big Oil's gravy train of milking the consumer is over!!!

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  • Yroc
    replied
    Re: Whats the deal with non EPA conversions?

    The fact that there are hundreds of threads arguing these basic epa or non-epa points just proves that the already small CNG community will never unite and fight for widespread use of CNG. There is a million ways to kill a good idea, and they are all on this site!!

    Crazy that a few will ruin the future of a state or even country...it's happening, whether you see it or not. Last summer proved that people want a cheap local fuel and so many laws and regulations popped up it's crazy. CNG pumps have been here for like 20 years with no notice, once people starting using them, everyone wanted to regulate them, coincidence? YEAH RIGHT!!

    Leave a comment:


  • CraziFuzzy
    replied
    Re: Whats the deal with non EPA conversions?

    Originally posted by younkin View Post
    As time goes on we will ALL be able to convert our cars whether we use EPA kits or Offshore kits. The time will come when the EPA will let the States monitor themselves.
    Well, as a resident of a state who has long been monitoring itself, this isn't necessarily a GOOD thing...

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  • younkin
    replied
    Re: Whats the deal with non EPA conversions?

    Franz, any conversion whether it is EPA Approved or not has in common the high pressure tank, quarter turn valve, filter, filler, and high pressure tubing. These have to be NFPA52 compliant. The rest of the kit is made up of components that are common in every conversion. Many EPA Approved conversions have the some exact components as the Offshore kits. Whether or not they meet Emission standards depends on how efficient they are and how well they are tuned.
    As Franz stated" "Now, any converted vehicle MUST at least equal the OEM vehicle, and preferrably be cleaner than the OEM, or it simply cannot be converted. That is just plain common sense, good environmental logic, and anything else violates the EPA clean air mandate. Economical fuel is one thing, messing up the air with Carbon Monoxide, unburned Hydrocarbons, or high NOx is another."
    As time goes on we will ALL be able to convert our cars whether we use EPA kits or Offshore kits. The time will come when the EPA will let the States monitor themselves. Jim
    [email protected]
    801 427 2284

    Leave a comment:


  • Franz
    replied
    Re: Whats the deal with non EPA conversions?

    One of the biggest reasons the EPA has cracked down on conversions is "us", meaning you and me. For many years, conversions were allowed, just simply because they were cleaner or presumed cleaner than the original vehicles emissions. While the OEM vehicles improved in technology every year and especially since the mid 90's, CNG technology has not necessarily done so. Just hanging a CNG system on a vehicle does not make it super clean although properly done, it can be.

    When I got started in this business in the 80's, I saw conversions with scrap nitrogen bottles, welding pressure regulators, household Fisher regulators for low pressure, carburetion made from everything including PVC, plywood, bondo, sheet metal, and high pressure fuel lines from brake line tubing. Emissions? Who cared, or who new.

    During the early 90's, the EPA began testing converted vehicles and found that in a random sampling, a huge number failed the test, something like 90%. The EPA gave the industry a couple of years, until OBD-II in 1996, to clean the emissions to at least OEM standard, then a couple more years, then one more extension until 2004, when all exemptions were pulled. This includes Memo 1-A, and Option 3.

    Now, any converted vehicle MUST at least equal the OEM vehicle, and preferrably be cleaner than the OEM, or it simply cannot be converted. That is just plain common sense, good environmental logic, and anything else violates the EPA clean air mandate. Economical fuel is one thing, messing up the air with Carbon Monoxide, unburned Hydrocarbons, or high NOx is another.

    For safety, many states have safety codes imbedded in their laws. They are there to protect the public and keep people from being just plain stupid.

    Who do we have to blame for the tight restrictions? All the EPA does is to enforce them through inspections. Why are they in place? Just look at the air quality in most large cities around the world and we can see what unregulated technology, or the lack of same, does.

    Franz

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  • mrpsycho1
    replied
    Re: Whats the deal with non EPA conversions?

    I have read this entire thread and only IndyRonbo has asked the right question... "So what do I do?" You will not likely get a perfect answer here. I came to cngchat to learn about CNG too, like most members. No luck! So I want to try to answer your question. You have 4 choices in politically correct order. 1. Get on the list and get an overpriced new Honda GX (you might find a used one, but it will be overpriced too.) 2. Call TGT in Tulsa and talk to Tom or Charlie about converting a "newer" car (the fed and state incentives might be better than you think). 3. Keep waiting for the Pickens Plan to save the US economy. Don't get me wrong... I support the Pickens Plan, and I am an active plan member, but don't hold your breath. 4. Do whatever you want to do and don't talk about it. I know if I was sitting on free natural gas, I would have a PHIL or some kind of FM and at least one NGV. I won't go into detail about plan 4, but it works best for me. Other than that, the best information on this thread is BE CAREFUL. These systems are HIGH pressure and use instrument grade stainless steel fittings and tubing with very specific installation techniques. Then, getting the system to run at a stoichometric ratio is obviously misunderstood and frightening to some. So, if the moderators allow this post to fly, you have your answer... Buy the Honda and get a PHIL If you are like me, a working class broke a$$, you can’t afford the first 3 choices.

    Originally posted by IndyRonbo View Post
    Wow. I just took the time to read all the threads on this topic and it reads like a political presidential debate.
    I live in Indiana we don't have anyone to convert any vehicle. I have built cars for a hobby and it looks to be easier to convert my '32 deuce than my 2002 chevy S-10. I commute 425 miles each week and my s-10 gets 26mpg which (yes I can do math) $106 / week or $424 / month. That was more than my truck payment when it was new. I have my own natural gas well and I do know something about how to safely manage the gas. I as others have looked into kits to convert my vehicles at a reasonable cost but I want to do it legal, safe and effective. So what do I do? Just keep watching this forum for any advice and information on how to accomplish this task. Teach me to fish so I can teach others...

    Educate me please on what to do.

    Farmer in Indiana who has to work off the farm because there is no profit in farming due to the $5.00 diesel fuel.

    Leave a comment:

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