Whats the deal with non EPA conversions?

[John Mitton]

Re: Whats the deal with non EPA conversions?

Yroc, we toe the line here with regard to following the law, be it legislated or mandated by a federal agency. Believe me, if you could successfully argue and get a court to rule that that Memorandum 1A is either non-binding or even if it is binding that it does not apply to alt fuel conversions I would be the first to help reimburse your legal fees.

Seriously, I would love to see someone with some legal background start a new discussion thread here as to the legitimacy and enforceability of Memorandum 1A.

I answered your "agenda" question in another thread:
http://www.cngchat.com/forum/showpos...1&postcount=25

[CNG MOTORS]

Re: Whats the deal with non EPA conversions?

When I said ticket and mean fine. EPA can fine you!

What's wrong with making money, do you volunteer your time to your employer? Do you think I have done more harm than good for the CNg market? Making money on high dollar stuff? so am I to understand I am responsible for $15,000 cavaliers? Why do you think this stuff is higher dollar? Me or all the Utah buyers rushing in to get these vehicles. I used to sell the same cars for $5000 when I bought them cheaper 4 years ago. As far as competing with me I just gave a public compliment on this forum to one of my competitors up there in Utah. I don't disagree a compitent person can do this safely, but what everyone else that has no mechanical background. The site that will remain unamed says anyone can do it. Well I disagree with that. I've been in this business a while and I have no business doing it.

Only speaking for myself here, but my vested interest is CNG is long term. I have been selling CNG cars from day one going back 4 1/2 years before CNGChat and before anyone in Utah knew what CNG was. I am not looking for the short gain here, where most people trying to get around the system are. My interest is to keep CNG going long term, because long term it benifits my business, yes. But for someone trying to make a quick buck through illegal means does nothing for this CNG market. I have no hidden agenda, I even pulled all my cars off this site that were for sale because a customer of mine that was frustrated over how fast I was selling cars complained to the forum. Every time he was interested in a car he would move too slow and I sold it.

CNG is making news big in Utah, what if the next story was, "MAN TRYING TO CONVERT HIS OWN VEHICLES KILLS HIMSELF AND BLOWS UP HIS HOUSE" what do you think that would do to the market?

I sincerely don't want CNG to end up with a bad wrap because of a few bad eggs. One because I believe CNG is the future and two my lively hood does depend on it.

[Yroc]

Re: Whats the deal with non EPA conversions?

I guess what I want to know is this. Where are these 'laws' written? Who is enforcing them? I don't know anyone that knows anything about these 'laws'. My first NGV was a 2000 escalade from Pheonix. From what I've read here, it's an illegal vehicle. How was I to know this? Why didn't anyone do anything about it? I registered it, I claimed the tax credit and I passed my emissions and inspections.

I am now converting vehicles that exceed EPA requirements. They pass emissions (only requirement of the memo 1A) they meet or exceed all of the NAFTC safety requirements, they ore OBDII compatible. What's the EPA going to fine me for? tampering with emission controls?? I don't think so, I didn't touch any of that and I have documented before and after emissions for these vehicles and they are lightyears cleaner.

I wouldn't even know anything about any of these so called laws if they weren't promoted so heavily on this site. I'd still just be minding my own business happy that we could all be driving cleaner, cheaper vehicles someday.

Why would a ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY want to keep cleaner, safer vehicles off the road? (yeah, that will make them look good in court). Even if they tried to enforce anything here, they have a poor, weak case. I would hope the day the EPA tries to bully any of us. We will ALL stand together.

It really pisses me off that everyone on this board doesn't support each other. This will be the downfall of this industry. We are small, all combined we are small, so we need to be united in making change!!! let's do it!!

We need to remember that there is billions and billions of dollars out there for everyone in this industry. Those who get EPA certs, will have their edge, those that convert will have different issues. I think that there is enough here for everyone. There is not much competition in this industry, but for some reason everyone thinks they have to be the only one

[CNGcruiser]

Re: Whats the deal with non EPA conversions?

Lots of discussion on the certification issue.
this is crazy.
If I install a kit that was "certified" in 2003, on a 2001 F-150 in 2003 then i'm legal. Then if the supplier does not re-new the certification in 2004 and I put the same kit on a 2001 F-150 I'm ilegal....becasue they didn't pay the EPA $35K to re-new the certification.

So when did you really put that kit on your vehicle???

The conversion kit manufactureres are sick and tired of handing about $35K to the EPA each and every year to re-certify the same kits for every make and model of vehicle, even though they use the same engine. ,,,, yes, re-certify the same kit year after year. So if Ford has 7 models of trucks (crew cab, standard cab, club cab, short bed, long bed etc, all with 5.4L ) each model is about $35K. so 7 models x $35K each year.... now do dodge chevy ford,..... Is the EPA really a bank???

The EPA needs to find the commen sense trough and take a big long drink.

Why is the EPA worried about folks running on CNG?? that is the issue.

Most all the kits i have seen have no trouble, when installed correctly - to pass smog. THe EPA should only go after the kits that can't pass because they don't have a feed back loop and can't continuoulsy monitor the exhuast gases.

A SMOG check can expose bad kits or installations. The Conversion kit folks shoudl only have to certify a kit 1 time and have the cert last, then we all save money having conversion done on our vehicles. Peaple will conform if they can do it for a reasonable price.

Oh, and what about the EPA getting caught running non-certified kits on their own EPA fleet cars....

We need to get together and help the EPA find a common sense, environmentally sound solution.

[chunder]

Re: Whats the deal with non EPA conversions?

So there we go, they are NOT illegal. There is no law banning them. The EPA has not regulated that brands like {banned by an otherwise invested moderator} are illegal. They have just approved a hand full of installers/kits, not excluded the rest. And if you follow their regulations and come out with an exceptionally safe and cleaner vehicle....No harm, No Foul. In fact...Less harm, No foul.

Just because your vehicle doesnt qualify for tax breaks doesnt mean its illegal.

[chunder]

Re: Whats the deal with non EPA conversions?

Here's what should happen....

All vehicles should be openly allowed to convert at will. Those vehicles that are converted should be designated as such for registration purposes. All designated vehicles should be required to have emissions testing on a yearly basis that the EPA (not just the state) should have access to. The EPA could openly monitor all converted vehicles. The EPA could enforce changes to vehicles/kits/installers that are not in compliance with safety and emissions. Everyone wins. The end.

[Adrian]

Re: Whats the deal with non EPA conversions?

Here's what should happen....

All vehicles should be openly allowed to convert at will. Those vehicles that are converted should be designated as such for registration purposes. All designated vehicles should be required to have emissions testing on a yearly basis that the EPA (not just the state) should have access to. The EPA could openly monitor all converted vehicles. The EPA could enforce changes to vehicles/kits/installers that are not in compliance with safety and emissions. Everyone wins. The end.

That is way too logical and the EPA looses money! It would be nice though.

[Adrian]

Re: Whats the deal with non EPA conversions?

So easy even a caveman can do it.

(No offence to cavemen)

Apparently cavemen would be more logical than our wonderful EPA!

[irage]

Re: Whats the deal with non EPA conversions?

Kurt,

I am with you. I am willing to take the risk. If the EPA wants to come after me, then knock yourself out. I am seeing more an more CNG vehicles everyday and I stop people and ask them how it is working and where they got it installed. The asnwers vary, but the majority have been kits. There may be rules, but I am tired of our government being the only onea allowed to break the rules.

I see USPS trucks, UPS trucks and other large vehicles that don't meet the EPA certification with CNG. It's time we take the power back. My gas bill has tripled in less than a year and now there is talk about 6.00 a/gal by end of summer. If this keeps up I won't have to worry about the EPA or the IRS, because I won't be working anymore.

I am also sick of forums that regulate free speech. This should be an open discussion and free exchange of ideas. Since when has that been grounds for censorship? Installing an "illegal" kit is no worse than installing a performance chip or installing glass packs.

Drastic times call for drastic measures. No one is looking out for us.

[jdfriberg]

Re: Whats the deal with non EPA conversions?

I am too new to take sides regarding "legal" or "illegal" kits or conversions. I do notice that one of the strict interpreters of the law has an illegal copyright infringement on his signature line. Is that affected by our terms of service?

Thank you

[bretlott]

Re: Whats the deal with non EPA conversions?

With gas prices going over $4.00 you are going to see this CNG thing explode. Just hold on for the ride and watch as Many backyard mechanics are going to try their hand at CNG conversions. Not even the EPA is going to be able to stop it. It is going to be very interesting to watch this unfold. Only time will tell if people start blowing up at the pump.

[CraziFuzzy]

Re: Whats the deal with non EPA conversions?

With gas prices going over $4.00 you are going to see this CNG thing explode. Just hold on for the ride and watch as Many backyard mechanics are going to try their hand at CNG conversions. Not even the EPA is going to be able to stop it. It is going to be very interesting to watch this unfold. Only time will tell if people start blowing up at the pump.

That is exactly what this forum's rules are trying to avoid. Well, at least avoid any culpability when said 'mechanics' blow themselves up. Look what happened to the SuperShuttle driver in Carson that didn't have his van properly inspected following an accident, because, how would he have known to have it done?

[chunder]

Re: Whats the deal with non EPA conversions?

This SuperShuttle driver was not a "backyard mechanic" and with over 7 million natural gas vehicles worldwide... Wouldn't it be strange if there wasnt an accident every once in a while? I think the main idea is that they are not any less safe than gasoline vehicles. I mean, do you always worry about static ignition when fueling with regular unleaded? I don't, but I know that it is a risk and it doesnt keep me from driving my car. I think that the real issue in this specific case is the lack of a safety inspection on the CNG equipment after an accident. This has nothing to do with the topic.

[CraziFuzzy]

Re: Whats the deal with non EPA conversions?

My point was to illustrate what happens when the "backyard mechanics" are not fully educated on the proper methods in working with CNG. I was not saying the SuperShuttle driver was the cause, but that it was the body shop not knowing that extra precautions needed to be taken when dealing with CNG. Currently, working with gasoline is 'common knoledge' for anyone who would be willing to do some work. Working with CNG is not.

[CNG MOTORS]

Re: Whats the deal with non EPA conversions?

Maybe illegalcngchat.com is in order then, You would be the right person for it, because you believe in it so much. Just as John, Hal, I, and the other moderators don't believe in it here. Regardless if we like it or not EPA set rules, granted it's all political, but non the less rules. Those that choose to play by the rules this is the place to get help, those that don't this forum is not the place, for many reasons, first and foremost in my opinion is the liability of allowing an open discussion and someone were to get injured. We are sue happy nation and some one would come after this forum in an instent if something like that were to happen. We've got a guy sueing my go-kart club right now because he didn't know how to use the soap dispenser in the bathroom and soap got in his eyes, he's sueing for $125,000 NO JOKE it's in litigation now.

EPA's a pain in the ass I do not disagree, could we prmote this thing faster and further without them, YES. I had a vehicle once that was set up improperly (by whom I don't now) when I ran the car through emmissions it blew so bad on CNG that it failed the smog test, but on gasoline it passed with flying colors. Example of a bad setup. People are going to go around EPA no matter what, yes we know this is going to happen we just don't want to be part of it or have a hand in it. But appears you are ok with it, that's why I recommend a different forum for you or your own forum, these are not difficult to set up.

Using an anology here. Say a person was walking down the street in front of you and drops a $100 bill, do you pick it up and return it or do you pocket it? You didn't steal it from the person? (Moderators of this forum are doing what we think is right)