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Whats the deal with non EPA conversions?

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  • #16
    Re: Whats the deal with non EPA conversions?

    Originally posted by casainc View Post
    Nice dodge but since the regulations are up for interpretation until there is a court president I don't know how you can determine they 1. Are illegal and
    4. Subject the installer and owner to penalties of up to $10,000 per day for tampering with onboard emission diagnostics.
    Conversion Requirements
    Beginning with MY 2005 light-duty vehicles (MY 2007 for heavy-duty vehicles between 8,500 lb. and 14,000 lb. gross vehicle weight rating), all conversions must be onboard diagnostic system (OBD II) compliant when operating on the alternative fuels. No false OBD codes or false malfunction indicator light (MIL) illumination should occur. For dual-fuel vehicles, the OBD II system must not be affected by the conversion when operating the vehicle on gasoline. Testing for compliance should be conducted by inducing failures to the emission system.
    http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/vehi...l#requirements


    My reading of that leaves enough wiggle room to place doubt upon whether those two statements are accurate, pertaining to a dual-fuel vehicle.
    Apparently there is a difference between "dual fuel" veh and "bi-fuel" veh - hence different regulations?

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    • #17
      Re: Whats the deal with non EPA conversions?

      So how old of a vehicle do I have to get so that I can convert it "hoop jumping free?" Is 79 old enough?

      Ben

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      • #18
        Re: Whats the deal with non EPA conversions?

        If I am understanding correctly, 1995 is old enough. It just cant be OBDII (1996 and after).

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        • #19
          Re: Whats the deal with non EPA conversions?

          Everyone needs to read this link, John has it posted elsewhere on this site also. There are some weird dangerous people out there, thats usually why any rule comes about, to protect everyone from the worst of us.
          We are dealing with high pressure, that is also flammable under the right conditions. 2 different conditions by themselves or together can kill or maim us and those around us if not used, serviced or installed properly.
          Dave Clement

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          • #20
            Re: Whats the deal with non EPA conversions?

            Dave, I fixed the link in your post. I hope everyone who is interested in conversions will read this NGV America document.

            ThunderStik makes some excellent points. The EPA certification process is a challenge but certainly not something that I would label as a scam. The purpose is simple really: just show the EPA that post-conversion your system has not messed up the OBDII emissions system on the engine family.

            The current list of light-duty certified retrofits has only 6 companies on there. There ought to be dozens. That is why I invested in one company that will hopefully be on the list soon and why I would encourage others who understand CNG and the OEM onboard diagnostic systems to go for it too. I am going to start a new thread on how the EPA process works and would be more than happy to help others who want to go down the path.

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            • #21
              Re: Whats the deal with non EPA conversions?

              Thanks John, We need to work this, I think as we get over the 2000 member mark we can exert our influence to improve what we don't like as a group.
              We're not about avoiding the rules, let's improve them! For the first time in NGV history a group of individuals are coming together to promote change, a large enough group to make a difference for us, the NGV industry and our country. We're one short of 1750 members as I write this. 2000 here we come! Spread the word, everyone can make a difference. Go to those Clean Cities Coalition meetings. Write your newspaper editor. Don't be afraid to put big NGV lettering on your vehicles! The pen is mightier than the sword...............
              OK, kind of dopey, but you get the idea, if we stick together we can be a catalyst for better change.
              Last edited by cngaz; 05-16-2008, 11:05 AM.
              Dave Clement

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              • #22
                Re: Will the real BIG BROTHER please stand up?

                I may have the wrong idea but arn't all of the fines etc for a non EPA conversion pertaining to OBD II cars? Also arn't the fines for making the car pollute more? Where are all of these NON EPA APPROVED cops at anyway? Where are all of these rules written down at? Will the real big brother please stand up? Jim
                Jim Younkin
                www.younkincng.com

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                • #23
                  Re: Whats the deal with non EPA conversions?

                  I guess we live in different countries divided by the Grand Canyon.
                  In Arizona, the AZ Dept of Environemntel Quality will shut your business down if you get caught installing a non EPA certified conversion. I have a guy right down the street that has already been threatened by them.
                  So the lack of oversite in Utah does not mean its universal for everyone.
                  But Arizona already went through the boom once in 2000 and had conversions and conversion shops coming out our ears because there were incentives. Utah is now going though a very similar situation. If you get a bunch of crappy conversions going that don't work right, then the citizens complain about it, then the news gets a hold of it, then the politicians feel their necks are on the line and suddenly you are going to feel regulated and then some, if you have the back lash we experienced in Arizona. You then lose your state incentives and all your conversion shops close up and you won't find a politician that will risk his carreer to talk to you. Then what do you have? We've been through it. Its not fun. ( BTW, I am not involved in conversions).
                  We do not currently have any incentives in Arizona, so unless an OEM starts building new NGV's you still have a vehicle problem, because no one in Arizona can afford a conversion ether, so we either work on regulations to make them less costly, or we buy enough EPA conversions that the manufacturing and production costs come down or we get more assistance and incentives for everyone or all of the above.
                  Thats what our Chat group can do.
                  Last edited by cngaz; 05-16-2008, 02:53 PM.
                  Dave Clement

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                  • #24
                    Re: Whats the deal with non EPA conversions?

                    Dave, Are you saying that Just Shops got fined? Individuals weren't fined? The trouble with EPA Kits are that there are none for imports? Does anyone have a line on any kit for a 90 Accord? Jim
                    Jim Younkin
                    www.younkincng.com

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                    • #25
                      Re: Whats the deal with non EPA conversions?

                      My understanding is in CA, if its not Carb they will impound the vehicle.
                      In Arizona I don't think they can take much action against an individual, but I may be wrong. They may deny your license plates, you definantly would not get the AFV plates or the AFV licesne plate discount.

                      What manufacturer in their right mind would go through the process of designing and producing and EPA certifying a conversion for any foreign car unless they know they are going to recoup their investment by selling X
                      amount of conversions.
                      If our manufacturers could not sell enough basic Pickups & Cavaliers to make it worth their while to stay in the business, how would anyone make any money on a smaller segment for foreign cars that already get pretty good mileage?

                      I guarantee if you walk into any kit manufacturer and maybe some of our vehicle manufacturers with an order for say 1000 or 1500 of the same vehicle, they would get it done. Anyone here ready to step up and put their money down on that order? Thats whats needed.
                      Then anything they can sell past that is gravy.
                      Last edited by cngaz; 05-16-2008, 03:21 PM.
                      Dave Clement

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                      • #26
                        Re: Whats the deal with non EPA conversions?

                        Here in Utah County I spoke to The Utah County I/M Office and was told that non OBD II Cars only have to pass the Usual I/M Test and have all of the smog equipment still on the car. Why do people with fuel efficient cars want kits? For the same reason as anyone, the cheap NG.... An Old VW Mechanic, Jim
                        Jim Younkin
                        www.younkincng.com

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                        • #27
                          Re: Whats the deal with non EPA conversions?

                          I think we need to bust the myth that if a vehicle is converted to run CNG it now automatically has cleaner emissions. Stan had a great post on that earlier on in this thread.
                          http://www.cngchat.com/forum/showpos...8&postcount=16

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                          • #28
                            Re: Whats the deal with non EPA conversions?

                            All you need is two or three bad readings to get into the wrong hands........
                            In 2000, the state and ADEQ used those against us, then everyone thought they were all that way. That belief still exists with some of our state officials to this day.
                            Dave Clement

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                            • #29
                              Re: Whats the deal with non EPA conversions?

                              I agree with the Stick let the CNG cars roll, no one on this board has showed me any laws yet. I don't have a CNG car yet but I do have 30 years wrenching and I have seen many poor mechanics and crooked mechanics but on the other hand I have also worked with many very good, honest, hard working mechanics. I have smog tested in Utah and California and there are always those who like to bend the rules but lets not go on a witch hunt just yet. As a mechanic I look for ways to solve promlems, thats what I do all day fix cars. The cars all by themselves will break (especially the American ones). There are dishonest people in every profession from politicians to investment bankers but I know one thing for sure and you can take this to the bank, gas will never go down in price, an old Mechanic, Jim
                              Jim Younkin
                              www.younkincng.com

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                              • #30
                                Re: Whats the deal with non EPA conversions?

                                Wholly Crap! What a bunch of mangy coyotes howling at the moon!!!!
                                Dave is right! It certainly is a different world north of the canyon.
                                You're state gives you a .63 cent Lobster dinner and your bitching because there are only so many Lobsters in the sea. How could God play such a cruel joke on you. Why didn't God make more, so that when it was your turn, you wouldn't be denied your God given right to a .63 cent Lobster. Oh, and shout at the Devil too... the drawn butter is cold.
                                Sorry for the rant, but you people crack me up. Less than a decade has past and you are destined to repeat our history.
                                If it's so damn simple, why don't you pull one of those well engineered CNG monkeys out of your butt, strap it to your engine, fill it to 3600psi and run it thru the lab in Ann Arbor and see if they salute.
                                I'll tell you what, this week I'll start a new thread in the conversions forum with so many facts about the actual conversion and certification process and so many "what ifs" that can go wrong, it will make your head spin.

                                Later....
                                Your Friendly Nazi Squirrel Administrator

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