How should a conversion be regulated?

[Yroc]

I hope this doesn't get deleted from the site, I'm really interested in knowing what people think.

If the people who the EPA are affecting with their rules were to vote, what would the majority want?

The baseline dyno test is a test we have done on all of our conversions. Utah has unofficially supported these conversions and this a great way to show that conversions do not have to be EPA approved to run properly. They will pass OBDII tests as well.

[Curtis]

Re: How should a conversion be regulated?

I might have added a few more options to the poll, but definitely a streamlined method to gain certification for kits which reduces the red tape and expense. If it only cost $50k to get your EPA testing done over a 3-6 month process, and CARB would use those certs and test results to approve without retesting (for a nominal fee) I think more kits and OEMs would come back to the market. EPA approval isn't bad or out of line. It's CARB that makes it unreasonable to most OEM's. With more and more states adopting CARB standards, this will become a bigger issue in the future.

[larrycng]

Re: How should a conversion be regulated?

When working with conversions, you need to be careful. The vehicle should be baselined with a full ASM or IM -240 test. After the conversion the vehicle needs to have the same tests run on both fuels to insure the conversion has not adversly affected the vehicles emissions and driveablity. THEN, the same tests, both fuels, should be run 3 to 6 months later and then again at 1 year. After the system proves reliable then follow the regular emission test cycle --on both fuels.

Yes it is a little complicated, but it goes the extra step to prove that the system is reliable over a period of time and that emissions have truly been reduced.

I used to check my LP conversion regularly just to be sure, and yes it held for the 9 years (of course I had the facilities in which to do it). It held on both fuels -- passed both tests.

After the problems with CNG conversion that took place in Denver in the early '90. The CNG was dirtier than the gasoline, because most conversions were off the shelf conponents that were mixed and matched. Very few took the time to run the load mode emissions test to very the proper and clean operation of the vehicles. (those were the days when power screws were still on the mixers)

Safety goes without saying.

Ok enough with soap box

Larrycng

[John Mitton]

Forum policy

Yroc,

No worries about the poll, this kind of dialogue is exactly what CNGchat is for. What we don't do here is promote specific illegal / uncertified activity.

http://cngchat.com/index.php?pid=9#furtheringillegal

I for one feel that any conversion must bear-out that the OBDII sensors still function as the OEM intended, illuminating the check engine light and setting the proper codes on the new fuel as it did on the original fuel. The best way to do this is the current program EPA has instituted via demonstrations of each key failure (rich, lean, O2, misfire, catalyst). Its not easy, but as Curtis points out it is much easier than the CARB requirements, especially actual 120,000 mile accumulation on a test vehicle, yikes.

[Yroc]

Re: Forum policy

Yroc,

No worries about the poll, this kind of dialogue is exactly what CNGchat is for. What we don't do here is promote specific illegal / uncertified activity.

http://cngchat.com/index.php?pid=9#furtheringillegal

I for one feel that any conversion must bear-out that the OBDII sensors still function as the OEM intended, illuminating the check engine light and setting the proper codes on the new fuel as it did on the original fuel. The best way to do this is the current program EPA has instituted via demonstrations of each key failure (rich, lean, O2, misfire, catalyst). Its not easy, but as Curtis points out it is much easier than the CARB requirements, especially actual 120,000 mile accumulation on a test vehicle, yikes.

We don't need the EPA to install a conversion that works seamlessly with the OBD system. We did a few of these, we didn't touch any sensors and we never got any MIL codes or not ready codes. They would pass the OBD test running on gas or CNG. We did full baseline dyno tests which cost us about $50, this also included reading the emission on both gases and proof that the CNG is cleaner. I think a $50 test is something those who have non-EPA conversions would be happy to do. It's also a better way to tell them that their vehicle is not running better on CNG, rather than assuming that is doesn't cause it' doesn't have an EPA certificate.

[Yroc]

Re: How should a conversion be regulated?

When working with conversions, you need to be careful. The vehicle should be baselined with a full ASM or IM -240 test. After the conversion the vehicle needs to have the same tests run on both fuels to insure the conversion has not adversly affected the vehicles emissions and driveablity. THEN, the same tests, both fuels, should be run 3 to 6 months later and then again at 1 year. After the system proves reliable then follow the regular emission test cycle --on both fuels.

I believe this is what we did. The conversions, kits and programs are new enough that we haven't had the time to perform down the road test, but their should not be any problems. It is a sound system and no corners were cut. They are not the cheap kits you see around here alot, they are different and work differently.

[CraziFuzzy]

Re: How should a conversion be regulated?

The fact that gets overlookd here is that there are many MANY more cars on the road that have had 'performance' mods done on them that do not have to go through the same level of testing. How do most the aftermarket supercharger/turbocharger systems affect emmissions? What about nitrous? All of these things have an inherant tendancy to increase emmissions, and they do not have the draconian testing requirements. CNG has the tendancy to reduce emmissions, so why is it so much harder to do legally?

[wrenchmonkey]

Re: How should a conversion be regulated?

The fact that gets overlookd here is that there are many MANY more cars on the road that have had 'performance' mods done on them that do not have to go through the same level of testing. How do most the aftermarket supercharger/turbocharger systems affect emmissions? What about nitrous? All of these things have an inherant tendancy to increase emmissions, and they do not have the draconian testing requirements. CNG has the tendancy to reduce emmissions, so why is it so much harder to do legally?

Because power upgrades don't have the nasty habit of dipping into the pockets of certain interest groups and their lobbyists...

It's not about cleaning up the air, it's about pleasing the right interest groups.