diesel cng units

[smartineau]

What are the emission requirements for cng diesel kits? Are they legal? Do they affect vehicle warranty? They are much cleaner, but is a fogger type kit acceptable or do you have to use an injection kit? Has anyone done the full cng conversion kits replacing the injectors with COP units, installing injectors & seperate controller?
Stan M.

[smartineau]

Re: diesel cng units

I am replying to my own post.
I find it interesting that when I post a note like 'big brother is watching" there are several pages of opinions, but when I ask a technical question there are no answers, when I share technical data there are no comments.
Is there a place in this forum where a technician can ask other technicians a question?
It appears that the main focus of discussion is people wanting the cheapest kit possible and blaming everything and everyone else with personal opinion without any idea of how the systems work.
I install kits on diesels and they average close to 50mpg. I can not find any source for a direct answer on diesel conversions and state emission testing. I want to make sure that if there are specific requirements I am in line so a customer does not have a problem licensing a vehicle.
Is there a place for technical conversation out there or should I keep my questions on --- big brother is watching, everyone is ripping me off, why cant I use a ****** kit?
Someone say something!
Stan

[smggt]

Re: diesel cng units

I didn't know that deisels could be converted.

[smartineau]

Re: diesel cng units

You can do a full conversion replacing the injectors with coil on plug units and drilling the intake for injectors. You can do a fogger kit tied to engine load and replace up to 80% of the diesel with cng. Basically the diesel is used to ignite the cng like a spark plug would do.
The systems can be adjusted for percentage and load and the combined fuel actually burns better and improves horsepower and mileage.
Read the article called "motorhead messiah" for a view of what is possible.
Stan

[Andy-Paul]

Re: diesel cng units

smartineau;

I know what you mean about bugle oil drowning out hard questions...I checked the NGV America website, and they list a couple of manufacturers for big diesel remans--Cummins-Westport, ESI, and Westport Alternatives. Some of those diesel platforms are re-manufactured to spark ignition, some go with diesel pilot fuel and CNG thereafter. Finally, I seem to remember a diesel magnum from ECO, but those are the only ones that come to mind. Do any of these companies sell the reman parts to someone who is obviously qualified? I don't know, but I will ask around for you.

[cnghal]

Re: diesel cng units

Wow Stan, have some patients dude. Q & A in one day.
First, you've seen first hand how easy it is to feed the conspiracy theorists. It's always somebody else's fault we're a day late and a dollar short, certainly not the people who were happy with gas until it went over $3.00 a gallon.
Second, you're in the right place for technical questions.
Third, trust me, we appreciate the tech data. We have a lot browsing guests (left sidebar, online users) that visit and don't register much less post replies. But again, your input is appreciated.

Now, back on point, I remember 2 years ago at the AFVI Show in Anahiem that Omnitek http://www.omnitekcorp.com/engconvert.htm was working on a remanufacture kit for the Cummins 5.9L and was pursuing EPA. I don't know how far they got, but it seemed interesting that you could escentially do your own bolt-on topend reman and they had the ignition components made by thier other company Nology Engineering. They even had thier own deep Iridium spark plugs made for them.

[Georgegeeboy]

Re: diesel cng units

Westport has patented a high pressure direct injection retrofit to Larger Diesel engines mainly trucks-semis......Here in Oz they have started converting many mining trucks to run on cng/lng because of soaring running costs using the hpdi system (Australia has vast reserves of NG)which effectively means using 90-95% cng 10-5% Diesel = astronomical savings for the mining companies and reports here to date have been more than positive......talked to the man who did some of the conversions and he said that there are plans to introduce this system to light vehicles in the future......(5 years or so ) but you guys might know a lot more than me (being downunder) about this so keep us posted if this system or something similar is being made available in the US for Diesel vehicles.....................Might already be available there...

[bretlott]

Re: diesel cng units

Hi, stan.
not all of us are as educated as you on the technical side of cng. I would love to understand this more so I could give you some feedback. Most of us in this chat board are common folk just trying to save a little money switching to CNG. Many of us are having a hard time paying the bills with $4.00 gasoline.
I am an accountant that wants to save money on my commut to work. It seems that there are alot of companies setting up shop in utah doing illegal installatios and It seems that there is alot of interested people that are taking the bait regardless of the EPA regulations. It is going to be interesting to see what happens in utah in the next year or two. What is your opinion about big brother? Is big brother going to open up a can of woop, or is he going to back down to little brother?

[smggt]

Re: diesel cng units

. What is your opinion about big brother? Is big brother going to open up a can of woop, or is he going to back down to little brother?

"My opinion" and in knowing some things that I know, about the EPA, the state (Govenors office), and Fed gov. The EPA will come out like a dog in heat. Then the public backlash will be worse than the EPA's. There will be a middle of the road so to speak about the non EPA conversions. So that the EPA can save a little face anyway (how the gov works). No doubt it will get interesting in the begining. Bottom line conversions will end up being permitted EPA, Cert or not, so long as they pass IM. But only time will tell.
Again my Opinion

[taigacarol]

Re: diesel cng units

I am not a technician, but I have been having the same frustrations trying to get information on diesel cng. I want to do this with my personal 08 Ford 6.4L and am interested in some of my work rigs as well. I have contacted several of the companies listed as EPA/CARB mfgs(gas/CNG) and have gotten less than enthusiastic responses of possibly and maybe. I would think with Diesel at $5/gal that someone would be tripping over themselves to certify a system for the big 3 diesel pickups. Not that I would neccesarily wait for a certified kit (Look other direction big brother), information I've read seems vary favorable if you look at India and China - problem is I have difficulty reading Chinese or Indian technical specs. I would be extremely excited to get 50mpg (even half that) in a pickup and I can't see how emissions could be hurt by burning more efficiently with CNG. That and figure total emissions for 8mpg versus 50mpg or even 16mpg! Does the "fogger" type work well? What kind of kits do you install? The EPA/CARB certification process is most unfortunate - some forward thinking politician should put some federal dollars and incentives there for the SVMs building these systems. Oh my he!! I said forward thinking and politician in the same sentence! Anyway if you have more information on diesel cng PLEASE do share it!

[neongreen]

Re: diesel cng units

you know, nobody catches heat for installing propane injection on diesels as a performance mod. bully dog diesel performance does it all the time. i dont think it throws a code in the ecu, and while i am almost certain their kits arent EPA or CARB approved, nobody ever takes heat for propane injection. i dont see why cng should be any different, except that it seems big brother is very anal about cng but totally ignores propane. the only thing i would worry about is the intake tract and intercooler being full of cng. if it were a fogger after the intercooler, it would be very safe.

[cngdude]

Re: diesel cng units

Not big brother but very interested diesel conversions, contact me.
Thanks Bob B

Personal information removed: TOS Violation

http://cngchat.com/index.php?pid=9#guardyourprivacy

[cnghal]

Re: diesel cng units

EPA and CARB?
Two totally different animals.
EPA will draw the line when these "performance add-on kits" and "additive injection kits" go from additive and enhancement to fuel replacement and emission change and OBDII concerns.
CARB still requires certification of these "after market add-ons" if they are to be used on California roadways, just as they do for any replacement part that has to do with engine performance and emissions (spark plugs, sensors, cat forward exhaust, O2 & A/F sensors,air cleaner assemblies,.....). You will notice in any brochure or catalog for these "performance systems" the words "For Off-Road Use Only" or "Not for use on California Highways".
CARB takes these kits as seriously as they would if you bypass or remove your catalytic convertors or anything that changes the results of your "SMOG Check".

[cnghal]

Re: diesel cng units

Before you go running out to buy one of these kits, understand what if is that you are doing to your engine and the history of some of these "Diesel Displacement" kits. There have been some real pieces of work put out on the market over the years. Pre-turbo foggers with claims of upto 80% diesel displacement.
First, for a fogger system to be safe it can only work when the engine is under load and will use all the fuel/air mixture in the entire intake system.
Some better systems used to check all funtions (MAP, MAF, IAT, ECT,...)before releasing fuel into the intake and constantly checked status. So, if your driving around town, once your engine is running and warmed up, the system starts to test, after a delay and assuming your under load, the system will kick in until you let off the pedal and the cycle starts all over again, test,test,test,run,stop,test,test,test.......
What this amounted to was an expensive and complicated system that displaced 80% of the diesel, 5-10% of the time. Now run those numbers through your ROI formula and the system starts making as much sense as buying a hybrid, by the way that is what some of these systems were called.
The concept is a valid one, Westport has done some fantastic work in this area. It seems that a full out direct injection system is the way to go.
Problem: most new diesels that use direct injection and common rail injection are running a fuel rail pressure upto and over 20,000psi. Yes, that's twenty thousand pounds per square inch of hydraulic pressure. My Mercedes 2.7L Sprinter engine fuel system went as high as 23,000psi. They suggested you look for leaks with a piece of cardboard since liquid at that pressure would easily slice off a finger or anything else that got in its way. Now, how do you compress a 3,600 psi gas upto 20,000psi on board a vehicle and control it once you've got it. Doesn't sound so easy, does it.

Now I'm not trying to discourage anyone, I myself will be working on a system for the Ford 7.3L Powerstroke which is actually the International DT444E once I take delivery of an E450 tractor we bought. It's just going to take some serious "outside the box" thinking to solve this dilema.
So let's put on our thinking caps and start hacking away at these road blocks that are keeping us from our safe, clean burning and affordable fuel alternative.
Never say die......