Conversion Company

[Gregor]

Has anyone had experience with the Natruell www.natruell.com conversion company? It appears they offer a reasonable price on the conversion (my apologies if this company is part of the "illegal" companies). I would like some information on them, they look like the most promising installation company at a semi reasonable price. I am able to contact them and get information from them, but i would like someone with first hand experience with this company to give some details.

Thanks in advance.

[jetboatjohnny]

Re: Conversion Company

Impressive Brochure (PDF) They mention that they can install a "Natruell Fuel Center" in your home.
They mentioned DOT approved, but no EPA.
They also have a link to cngprices.com

[josch]

Re: Conversion Company

I like how they word this on their FAQ about MPG:

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"Q. Do I get the same MPG with my Natruell Fuel System?

A. With the Natruell System your can retain the same power as if you were operating your car on gasoline. Inferior systems do not inject the natural gas directly into your car and lose 20% efficiency."
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What is that supposed to mean? Does not inject directly into your car? Yes, inferior systems I suppose are likely to inject it directly into the atmosphere through a nozzle mounted in the hood? Using the art of confusion to sell kits.

By the way, it was MY understanding that unless you increase the compression ratio of the engine to accommodate CNG's higher octane, that there will always be like even a 6-8% drop in HP regardless of where you dump the fuel. Correct me if I'm wrong. Plus, there are plenty of drag cars that proved to have just as much or more HP dumping the fuel from a carb in the center of the intake, so port injection I would think has little effect on max HP, only driveability and increased part throttle fuel control. But running under WOT, I don't see the thing about where you injecting it has anything at all to do with power output. All power cares about is optimal A/F ratio.

Also to note, if their kits are not EPA certified, then good luck getting your tax credit because I was reading yesterday on the utah.gov website that when you file for your tax credit they want the EPA Certificate of Conformity for your vehicle, plus they want you to list the kit manufacturer, etc. Here I'll just post the eligibility requirements as listed on utah.gov below:

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R307-121-4. Procedures for Vehicles Converted to Clean Fuels.

To demonstrate that a conversion of a motor vehicle to be fueled by clean fuel is eligible for the tax credit, proof of purchase shall be made by submitting the following documentation to the executive secretary:

(1) VIN;

(2) fuel type before conversion;

(3) fuel type after conversion;

(4)(a) if within a county with an I/M program, a copy of the vehicle inspection report from an approved station showing that the converted alternate fuel vehicle meets all county emissions requirements for all installed fuel systems, or

(b) a signed statement by an ASE certified technician that includes the VIN and states that the conversion is functional;

(5) each of the following:

(a) conversion system manufacturer,

(b) conversion system model number,

(c) date of the conversion, and

(d) name, address, and phone number of the person that converted the vehicle;

(6) proof of certification required in 59-10-1009(1)(b) or 59-7-605(1)(b); and

(7) a copy of the vehicle registration.
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(Was clipped from here: http://www.rules.utah.gov/publicat/c...307-121.htm#T4 which was linked to from here: http://www.airquality.utah.gov/Plann...Tax_Credit.htm )


By the way, Step 6 which is: (6) proof of certification required in 59-10-1009(1)(b) or 59-7-605(1)(b); ...is the EPA certificate of conformity part, as listed on another part of the utah.gov website. Which is this:

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Does my conversion need to be EPA certified?

Answer: Yes, the conversion must be EPA certified. Under R307-121-4 (6) andR307-121-5(7) the proof of certification required in 59-10-1009(1)(b) or 59-7-605(1)(b) refers to the copy of the EPA certification for the conversion. This means that the manufacturer of the conversion equipment has to get the conversion equipment tested on your type of vehicle and supply you with a Certificate of Conformity indicating that the conversion conforms with EPA standards.


If a Certificate of Conformity is not available for your vehicle, testing is allowed by statute -- subject to the criteria in 40 C.F.R. Part 86 -- to obtain an EPA Certificate of Conformity. Such tests would need to be performed at a special facility (some of which can be found here http://www.epa.gov/otaq/consumer/lablist.pdf PDF file).


In a letter dated February 3, 2006, EPA provided information for small volume manufacturers' who convert vehicles and engines to operate on alternative fuels. In a letter dated September 1, 2005 EPA provided guidance for aftermarket alternative fuel converters on how to obtain EPA approval of the on-board diagnostics (OBD) II system. This guidance applies to converters who certify 2005 and later model year (MY) light-duty vehicles, light-duty trucks, and medium-duty passenger vehicles, and 2007 and later MY heavy-duty vehicles

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So how do they figure they will get around that? A lot of people will be furious if they buy their kit and later find they cannot get the tax credit that was an original selling factor.
.

[Gregor]

Re: Conversion Company

I definately see your point. I think if i were a buyer and found i couldn't get my tax credit I would be fililng some sort of suit...basically take it out of the final price anyway. I'm still looking around for a suitable place to have this kit installed, but at 14,000 dollars i'm better off buying a new vehicle, which unfortunately isn't an option.

[karlhafen]

Re: Conversion Company

DNS look up:

Registrant:
IDR Sun Ridge, LLC
51 E 400 N Bldg 1
Cedar City, Utah 84720
United States

Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com)
Domain Name: NATRUELL.COM
Created on: 03-Apr-08
Expires on: 04-Apr-09
Last Updated on: 14-Apr-08

Administrative Contact:
gregerson, ryan
IDR Sun Ridge, LLC
51 E 400 N Bldg 1
Cedar City, Utah 84720
United States
(435) 590-2909 Fax --

Technical Contact:
gregerson, ryan
IDR Sun Ridge, LLC
51 E 400 N Bldg 1
Cedar City, Utah 84720
United States
(435) 590-2909 Fax --

[John Mitton]

Re: Conversion Company

I suspect they have not obtained EPA certifications, otherwise their marketing would include the federal tax credit information.

Someone should also let them know that under the recently passed Utah House Bill 62 bi-fuel vehicles are going to lose the Clean Air license plates soon, so no HOV lane access nor free downtown parking in SLC.

One positive note is their technicians seem to have taken some first-class training on CNG. These are the shops I really feel sorry for... they have excellent capabilities but the few certified kits out there are locked-up with others in exclusive territory agreements from Baytech, BAF, Impco, etc.

[jblue]

Re: Conversion Company

DNS look up:

ummm .. actually a DNS lookup changes an IP address into a friendly domain name like google.com and vice versa.

What you did was a WHOIS lookup on a domain name.

If a Certificate of Conformity is not available for your vehicle, testing is allowed by statute -- subject to the criteria in 40 C.F.R. Part 86 -- to obtain an EPA Certificate of Conformity. Such tests would need to be performed at a special facility (some of which can be found here http://www.epa.gov/otaq/consumer/lablist.pdf PDF file).

If one was to look at that .pdf you would find:

NVFEL does not endorse any laboratory on this list and does not certify that they perform emission testing according to the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), Title 40, “Protection of the Environment.” Data supplied to EPA NVFEL from these laboratories must meet all requirements of the CFR. It is the responsibility of individual customers to affirm the laboratory’s testing capabilities and the quality of the data.

How strange that the EPA would compile a list of testing facilites, but then say it is the customers job to make sure they test to EPA specs.

[CrazyCobraManTim]

Re: Conversion Company

So perhaps this is a dumb question, but do we have a list anywhere of those companies that can perform EPA & CARB approved conversions?

I have Googled CNG conversions and read waaay too many pages and am losing interest in getting a V10 Excursion and converting it (though at $7k - I still might get it).

Tim

[John Mitton]

Re: Conversion Company

Hi CrazyCobraManTim,

BAF Technologies as a strong Ford conversion program. You can find their contact information in the PDF document referenced here:

http://www.cngchat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1767

Getting back on topic, it seems Natruell has been discredited enough. If someone finds they are providing legal products please send me or one of the moderators a PM and we will re-open the thread.

http://cngchat.com/index.php?pid=9#furtheringillegal