Announcement

**pastortw** · 05-27-2008, 02:50 PM

Re: List from Technocarb of EPA Certified kits....

I called and spoke to the people at Technocarb. They are very helpful. They have dropped all EPA certification of their kits. The explained to me that the cost of certification is simply too high to continue pursuing it. The same was true when I called Ecofuel...they too no longer certify their kits.

**ajgiorgi** · 05-27-2008, 03:01 PM

Re: List from Technocarb of EPA Certified kits....

Maybe the government will lower the fees eventually if they start getting a lot of interest. Maybe. If they want to clean the air, the government should help out by lowering the fees for CNG kits.

**ashtonmotors** · 05-28-2008, 12:51 AM

Re: EPA approved conversion kits from Technocarb

Technocarb is one of the product lines that we carry. All of the current Technocarb systems that we sell / install are for "Off-Road-Use-Only".

This means that they are not certified by the EPA to be driven on public streets. These systems are great for places like Moab, the west desert, the mountains, the farm or any place where recreation vehicles are allowed.

Many customers ask,
1-"What is the difference between an EPA certified kit and an "Off-Road-Use-Only" kit?
2- "Are the EPA kits a higher quality kit than the "Off-Road-Use-Only" kits since they often cost more?"
3- "Do the EPA kits burn cleaner and pollute less than the "Off-Road-Use-Only" kits?"
4- "Does anyone ever drive vehicles with OFF-ROAD kits on city streets?
5- "Why should I buy a EPA certified kit if an Off-Road kit costs less?

Let me take a moment and answer these questions since they always seem to come up.
1- The difference between an EPA certified kit and an Off-Road kit is the EPA kits have been tested extensively to demonstrate that they meet specific emission requirements. These tests are very expensive (starting at $25,000 per vehicle) and are specific to a vehicle year, make and engine. Some models of vehicles have different engines although they are of the same year. Each variation of engine size requires it's own test. The federal government requires that vehicles receive and pass this testing if they are to be driven on city streets. The auto makers are required to perform this testing prior to selling cars that will be driven on city streets.
Off-Road kits often times are exactly the same kit, but they have not undergone the extensive testing required for the EPA certification. For example; we are a distributor for Parnell USA CNG kits. The Parnell kits are universal kits that work well on almost any vehicle. Several vehicles using these kits became EPA approved. Because of the high cost of testing, very few vehicles were ever tested to obtain EPA certification. So the same kit can be EPA certified on some vehicles and "Off-Road-Use-Only" on other vehicles and the kits are exactly the same.

2-Are EPA kits a higher quality than "Off-Road kits? Yes and No. Yes, because you know exactly what you are getting with an EPA Certified kit. No, because many of the OFF-ROAD kits are identical to the EPA Certified kits. However not all OFF-ROAD kits are the same. Some inexpensive kits do not interface with the vehicle's OBDII system. This means that they do not utilize the vehicle's computers and sensory system. These kits were not designed to regulate the fuel and emissions through the OBDII system. These type of kits would not ever make it through the EPA certification process if they were submitted.
There are other systems however like Technocarb, ECO, BayTech and Parnell USA which interface completely with the vehicles OBDII system. These are comparable in quality to the kits that are EPA certified. In fact many of these kits are certified on specific vehicles.

3- Do the EPA kits burn cleaner and pollute less than the OFF-ROAD kits. The EPA rating guarantees what you are getting. It guarantees that the emissions will be within certain parameters. However, just because a kit is not certified on a specific vehicle does not mean that the kit will not burn equally clean. A good high quality OFF-ROAD OBDII kit will burn equally clean. A cheap non OBDII kit will not burn as clean.

4- "Does anyone ever drive vehicles with OFF-ROAD kits on the city streets?"
Yes, some individuals drive these vehicles on city streets since it is impossible to determine if a car is burning CNG or gasoline as it passes by. People also drive cars without seatbelts, download unlicensed music from the internet and use VCR's and tape recorders to record copyrighted material. This does not make any of these activities the right thing to do.

5- "Why should I buy an EPA certified kit if an OFF-ROAD kit is cheaper?" There is a $2500 Utah State Tax Credit available for certified kits that is not available to OFF-ROAD conversions. You may want to drive your car on city streets and be obedient to the federal rules. You also may want to help offset the expensive testing costs for those companies that invested heavily in the EPA tests. You may want a guarantee that the conversion you are buying meets the clean air standards.

**cnghal** · 05-28-2008, 07:40 AM

Re: List from Technocarb of EPA Certified kits....

Originally posted by ajgiorgi View Post

Maybe the government will lower the fees eventually if they start getting a lot of interest. Maybe. If they want to clean the air, the government should help out by lowering the fees for CNG kits.

The government fees are only for the actual number of installations and are minimal (approx. $75 each). The high cost is for independant privately-owned test labs that do the EPA approved tests. Due to stricter OBDII and aged catalyst and durability tests, there are currently only two labs nationally set up to do the testing where there used to be a dozen or more. Dedicated systems are cheaper due to no evap system testing which takes 24hrs in a sealed test cell and can easily triple the cost of testing.

**Techie** · 05-28-2008, 07:26 PM

Re: EPA approved conversion kits from Technocarb

Thank you Ashtonmotors for your input. This is the most comprehensive answer that I have received so far. Thank you again for your input.

**roverCNG** · 08-18-2008, 02:17 PM

Re: EPA approved conversion kits from Technocarb

What kits are still EPA approved?

Where do I buy a kit at wholesale?

Thanks I am just learning about CNG!

**MrComment** · 08-19-2008, 07:10 AM

Re: EPA approved conversion kits from Technocarb

You may have noticed that all of these kits are for LPG, not CNG.

**roverCNG** · 08-19-2008, 10:03 AM

Re: EPA approved conversion kits from Technocarb

Gotcha, is there information about CNG in this community?

There is a CNG filling station close to my house and I thought it would be a good solution..?..

**MrComment** · 08-19-2008, 12:23 PM

Re: EPA approved conversion kits from Technocarb

Originally posted by roverCNG View Post

What kits are still EPA approved?

Where do I buy a kit at wholesale?

Thanks I am just learning about CNG!

1. http://www.ngvamerica.org/pdfs/marke...ses.NGVs-a.pdf

2. Nowhere, legally. You have to contact the installers which have EPA approved kits directly, who then do the work.

**smartineau** · 08-25-2008, 03:19 PM

Re: EPA approved conversion kits from Technocarb

This listing about Technocarb kits explains a lot.
It appears that CNG is "Fuel for the rich" or better stated, only those who dont need to save money by using cng can afford it. It is a status symbol to show that they are "green".
Lets say that you have a 2003 low mileage vehicle you plan to drive for a long time -- can you buy a certified kit? NO! You must spend several thousand dollars buying a newer truck and then thousand's more to install the kit.
According to the EPA -- if you dont have a lot of money then you cant save on fuel, this appears to be a perk for the wealthy. How about a small business owner being driven to bankruptcy by fuel costs -- sorry, if your fleet includes vehicles over three years old, forget it!
In Utah, Weber county has issued a letter stating that if a cng vehicle does not have a certified EPA kit they will reject it and you can NOT license it to drive. SEE "Salt Lake Tribune 08/25/08" and read the article yourself.
Those living in Weber county who have tried to save money by installing cng, or how about all those who purchased a cng vehicle that does not have a certified kit --- you are in trouble! You cant save money on fuel unless you can afford the cost of an 05 (or newer) vehicle.
Isnt it ironic --- Install a performance chip OK, change camshaft to affect the way vehicle runs OK, add big tires to reduce mileage OK, put on a lift kit to add wind resistance and reduce mileage OK, put on high flow injectors OK, change throttle body for higher volume OK, add a kit to lie to the PCM about O2 readings OK.
You can change almost every part of a vehicle without a problem -- BUT -- reduce dependance on foreign oil, use locally produced fuel, reduce emissions, save money on fuel cost -- NO WAY!!! Weber county is leading the way to put a stop to that, if the EPA wont do it the state will! How would you like to be the one who installed a kit for a friend who sells the car next year to someone in Weber county. I can see ethe headlines now "Angry vehicle owner cannot license recently purchased cng vehicle, lawyer contacting back yard installer for answers" Stay tuned for further developments. Remember, the OLDEST certified EPA kit available is 2005 (according the the above Technocarb data) If you are a working family struggling to make ends meet --- too bad!

**Curtis** · 08-25-2008, 04:49 PM

Re: EPA approved conversion kits from Technocarb

As much as we tend to agree with your logic, side with you and sympathise... Beating this horse further doesn't change that fact that it's still a dead horse.

Supporting legislature that would streamline the EPA cert process and being politically active on Alt Fuels issues would tend to make more sence than complaining about the injustice of it all.

**Dmitry** · 08-25-2008, 08:32 PM

Re: EPA approved conversion kits from Technocarb

Smartineau,

That was a very powerful text. Unfortunately you deliver it to the wrong crowd - people are here because they already share your enthusiasm for CNG. Cut and paste it into the opinion section of your local newspaper - who knows, maybe it'll slip through, but personally I doubt it.

I am curious as to what Curtis means by "political activism". I think it's lame. No amount of activism stopped the occupation of Iraq - and we are talking lives and billions of dollars. And CNG... what CNG?

The only way to fight this is through legal system. That's a real win-win: support a good cause, and possibly win exorbitant sum of money. I've heard some lawyers only charge you a percentage of the award.

**smartineau** · 08-26-2008, 08:18 AM

Re: EPA approved conversion kits from Technocarb

Actually, I am an installer working for people in an economically depressed area. Many of my neighbors and friends are about to lose the farm because of fuel costs. I can help, but I dont dare. They desperatly need help but cant afford a new vehicle. It is hard to watch them go into bankruptcy and struggle so hard to irrigate their fields and move thier cows because they are simple working class people. I HAVE met with a state senator, I HAVE talked to a member of the house, I HAVE met with Robin from Clean Cities Utah. I AM certified for installation and tank inspection. I have tried to do everything I can from my little corner.
The problems we face are no different from rural areas nationwide, but it appears that what we think, need, and feel does not count. Polititions only take time to go to the cities because that is where the most votes are. The EPA only cares about the population centers as well.
Curtis at one time you told me that I needed to get in gear and earn my secret decoder ring. I have taken every class, passed every test for CNG installation, inspection, and diagnosis reasonable available to me. I am now approved to teach the currriculum for alternative fuels. It does no good, because those I desperatly want to help cannot afford it & my option is to watch them go under or face a lawsuit if a vehicle changes hands and connot be licensed.
I worked as a technician, shop forman, and service manager for dealerships for 15 years. Curtis, you work with new vehicles and those who can afford $100.00 per hour. In my area these people in their 50's, 60's, & 70's would have to work all day to pay for one hour of your diagnistic time! It is hard to see them struggle so hard when the answer is here and we could help ---- while kids destroy their trucks with every trinket known for more horsepower and that is OK.
How else can we be heard if we simply say, it has been discussed -- drop it because it is dead -- or in other words GIVE UP because nobody is listening, nobody cares, there is not enough money in it. Farmers and ranchers may feed the world but they dont have enough numbers or votes to be heard.
How about telling me the next place to go, or a group that can help my voice be heard instead of "just give up"!
Stan

**Dmitry** · 08-26-2008, 11:51 AM

Re: EPA approved conversion kits from Technocarb

I am not a lawyer, but let's just imagine you did get a fine. You contest it. A judge no matter how sympathetic is bound by the laws, so you demand a trial in front of the jury. It will be those same farmers - how do you think they will rule? And boom, a court precedent, the regulations are as good as dead - no lengthy legislative effort, no ridiculous chanting and waving banners. And people all over the country will use your case to build their defense.

And you don't need a lawyer for that, if you were fined you can defend yourself. If your customers get fined, they can rely on your testimony as an expert. So relax a bit, it's going the right way.

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EPA approved conversion kits from Technocarb

EPA approved conversion kits from Technocarb

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