Big brother is watching

[smartineau]

I had a misterious phone call yesterday. The man asked if I had any used tanks for sale, then he said he wanted to save money and asked if I sold any tanks that had expired -- which I dont. He then asked if I would install an inexpensive cng kit for him -- No if it is not certified I dont install them. He then asked me if I knew of any inexpensive cng kits he could buy -- You will have to find them yourself as I do not install anything that will bypass the emissions system. The last question was if I was aware of any business that installed non-certified kits that he could call?
I firmly believe that it was an inspector checking to see if we were installing non-certified kits.
Those out there who are detirmined to install {reference to illegal product removed by moderators} -- good luck! If you install it yourself it is only a $2500.00 fine, if a business installs them it could be $2500.00 per day. I also wish any business good luck in finding a customer when faced with a major fine that will lie for you and take the hit without telling them you installed it for them.
This is the second time I have been "tested" since I started selling cng parts.
As one of the state regional "safety inspection" trainers I know a little about how the state checks for those bypassing the system and shortchanging their customer and the environment. I am also the Education team leader for all college automotive programs in the state, serve on an international board for automotive education, and am the automotive department chair where I teach. I can not afford to mess around with non-certified kits and installations.
I will continue to have tanks and supplies for sale, but DO NOT call me about expired tanks, ask me to install an "India" or "Pakistan" or {reference to illegal product removed by moderators} kit, or bypass the computer emission system.
Stan M.

[CNG MOTORS]

Re: Big brother is watching

Got a call identical to this myself. I think your right, this is probably why we saw a EPA crack down in UT recently

[Ben]

Re: Big brother is watching

While I do not doubt the veracity of your claim, I have to disagree about which brother is watching. And while you may think that I am making light of the situation by suggesting that it is "little brother" that is watching, I am not. I actually find it to be more disturbing.
You see, anyone trying to create a case would have gone about it in a much different manner. Had you answered yes to any of the questions, the person calling would still have nothing for a list of reasons so long that it would take a lawyer to enumerate them all.
What I find to be the most disturbing is that this has all of the earmarks of a person on this forum who does not like the competition and is spreading doubt and fear because of his/her own insecurity. This forum and most of the folks on it have gone to every reasonable (and some that I can not quite see the reason in) length to make sure everything is above board. Whichever little weasel (and I do hate to besmirch the reputation of our little furry friends with the comparison) did this is trying to add to the cloud of mysticism and reluctance that already surrounds this industry and inhibits wide-spread acceptance. The more folks this person can scare off, the happier he/she will be.

Since Big Brother has to fight by the rules, I am personally more afraid of Little Brother. The enemy is within. The federal government has nothing to gain in this fight.

Ben

[younkin]

Re: Big brother is watching

As Stan stated above "I firmly believe that it was an inspector checking to see if we were installing non-certified kits.
Those out there who are detirmined to install {reference to illegal product removed by moderators} -- good luck! If you install it yourself it is only a $2500.00 fine, if a business installs them it could be $2500.00 per day. I also wish any business good luck in finding a customer when faced with a major fine that will lie for you and take the hit without telling them you installed it for them."
Who are the agents and what is the agency that is fining people? Do you have copies and references of the laws? Thanks, Jim
PS do you know of local classes for CNG Training and certification?

[smartineau]

Re: Big brother is watching

I have applied for a grant to bring in training to Utah for CNG installation certification and tank inspection certification.
The problem I am having right now is getting someone to come in and teach the classes. I have contacted NAFTC three times (their advertisements say they will bring the training to your place) and always get the same polite answer. So and so is not available but I will have them return the call when they get back. Evidently whoever the guy is has been gone for five weeks because I have not had any return call & cannot get an answer when I call them.
I sent a message to the college in Las Vegas with the same result.
I can sponsor the training, but cracking this secret code and breaking the monoply seems to be very difficult & I may not be able to get it done. I am still working on it!
Stan

[younkin]

Re: Big brother is watching

Stan, Thanks for the info, I am going to sign up for the 3 ASE certs for AFV's this fall, Keep me informed, Jim

[vaughnr007]

Re: Big brother is watching

Younkin, where are you going to take those classes?
Robert

[DannyCNG]

Re: Big brother is watching

Wow it costs 18 thousand per conversion? I think i want to get into that raquet! lol

Is it illegal to sell expired tanks? why is everyone giving that guy such a hard time?

If it's illegal, then yea i see why. is it?

[DannyCNG]

Re: Big brother is watching

I just got off the phone trying to purchase some expired tanks from someone who will for now, remain unmentioned. I am trying to get expired tanks for a boat. Which has nothing to do with the D.O.T. I explained that this was the purpose that I'm looking for safe expired tanks, and the guy was actually quite rude. He just interrupted me, and said "I won't sell them to YOU." I continued to explain, for a boat, and he just repeated, "I don't care, I won't sell them to you".

The tanks I'm speaking of have NEVER been installed. They're just past that magical little number stamped on the side... What a freaking waste! And what a jerk!

If it's not illegal, then he's just paranoid to the point of being rude. I'm inclined to agree with you that if ti's not illegal, tey should be more than willing to sell them to you.

[cngbuck]

Re: Big brother is watching

It would be different, if say for instance they were genuinely concerned for public safety, but most government stiffs just want to get more and more of YOUR money. They have this throw the baby out with the bathwater mentality about enforcement, mostly motivated by $$$$. I am not advocating using illegitimate systems or unsafe conversions, but honestly trying to bait someone into some type of illegal activity is displaying how much of a low-life they really are. There is problably one of them reading these posts just salivating at the idea of really sticking it to somebody so he can have a feather in his cap. They are the same people that when they were kids, were tattle tales that never had any friends. These Dudley Do-rights just mindlessly follow rules like robots, they problably can't even tie their shoes without a government issued instruction booklet that gives all of the safety procedures, certification fees, and mandated class certification for type 1 or type 2 shoelaces, those wearing velcro straps will be fined $2500 for just being too easy to do. Anything that makes sense, the government will be there to mess it up for everyone and regulate it to death. It is the old Federalist idealogy that the government should interfere with every aspect of the common person's life. I happen to agree with Thomas Jefferson, who believed that the government should have a very limited role in peoples day-to-day lives. CNG = Clean, cost effective, efficient driving. Govt/EPA = Red tape, ridiculous regulations, and $4.00 per gallon gas that funds election campaigns.

[younkin]

Re: Big brother is watching

Robert, In order to take the ASE Classes you need to have experience as a Mechanic, then you can register for the Fall Tests, go to the ASE website and look up the requirements, I have pass most all of the Automotive tests, you will need to have experience and study for them, Jim

[cngmike]

Re: Big brother is watching

Lets say I have several tanks that are due to expire in the near future yet I have had them setting on a shelf for the last ten years. How or what would you do with them? You could use some of them in personal conversion, give them to people you know and trust. Or sell them to someone that you don't know who might use them or install them in an unsafe manner. The outcome of the second scenario leaves you involved in culpability in an unneeded slap in the face of this industry. It could also leave you in the middle of a lawsuit. I cant help but think of the death of the Super Shuttle driver in Los Angels. A very public death of a very nice man. The shattering of his family. And I am sure a huge lawsuit.

[cnghal]

Re: Big brother is watching

Lions and Tigers and Bears, Oh My…. Conspiracy Theorist Unite!!! You guys crack me up!
First off, Stan, keep fighting the good fight brother. I get “pinged” and tested regularly myself but not as much as I do on this site by newbies.
Murphy, is it a surprise? We live in a state were if you mention alternative fuels around the government, they dive for cover.
Yes, this industry, like all others has it’s share of miserable bastards. But in my experience, I have found way more positive, helpful and downright friendly people. I have driven from NYC to Tucson on CNG, mostly due to the help and kindness of strangers who share our common suffering. I have driven 80 miles to emergency fuel up a total stranger and his wife who are now friends.
Trust me, if you take that chip off your shoulder for a minute or two, you might actually be "given" the education and shared experience you so desperately need.
As for formal training, have you tried to contact Leo Thomason at www.ngvi.com or at 800-510-6484. Leo is an excellent teacher, a good friend to have, and a wealth of knowledge about this industry. I have taken all of his NGV courses and would recommend them highly. You can even get a grant to pay for the NGV Fuel Storage Cylinder Inspection Safety Training. If your looking for something less formal, I am available to teach small groups the basics of proper system installations and maintenance.
I'm always glad to help.

Hal Burlingame
Eco Fuel Solutions

Experienced CNG Installation and Maintenance Technician
CSA Certified Cylinder Inspector
Certified NGV Driver & Mechanic Trainer
Certified CNG Fueling Station Technician
Certified CNG Fueling Station Designer
NGVAmerica Member
NFPA, Voting Member
Tucson Clean Cities Coalition Member

[needofspeed]

Re: Big brother is watching

Stan
I own a shop in Murray Ut and am finding it very difficlut to find certified equipment, or somewhere we can get certified. Can you help?

Tom Henry
Turn Key Service Tech
801-261-8034

[rtry9a]

Re: Big brother is watching

The thing that really bothers me here is the assumption that a dyi installation involves shoddy quality and inferior equipment. My experience with most garages has been terrible- they are mostly driven by fast profit, not quality, and they often hire inexperienced and poorly supervised kids to do the work in the back; generally resorting to replacement of parts, not troubleshooting problems. My wife had a traffic accident last year because a big local specialty garage forgot to tighten lug nuts on someones new wheel/tire installation. Their front wheel spun off in traffic, bounced across a major intersection, and hit the wife's Honda while she was waiting on a red light.

If anything, I prefer to fix and install things myself because I know that it was done correctly without cutting corners. Ive found that I can take the money saved and spend it on tools and/or better quality parts. What we really need here is an information source that details the BEST parts and safe installation techniques, not a link to some expensive secret society with butt-kissing papers on the wall.

[On the soapbox] This Country has really degraded into a mind set that assumes that we have to get the Governments' approval to do anything. Problem is, the lawyers in Washington DC have a real problem getting anything correct and completed in a timely manner, unless of course, a big bribe (election contribution) is involved. The Govt should serve the people; the people should not have to serve the power-hungry vampires at every whim.

Bottom line:, It is often easier to get forgiveness than permission.