Our CNG Impala EPA lab vehicle is up for grabs

[John Mitton]

Hi Guys,

OK, we are ready to part with the 2008 Impala we used in our lab testing at EPA. It has a brand-spanking-new EPA certificate of conformity and is currently in Ann Arbor, MI awaiting shipment back to Phoenix.

Although we have a number of fleets lined-up for these vehicles I wanted to give back to the CNGchat community for all of your great contributions to this project that Kevin and I have been discussing with you for the past year by offering the first one in the market exclusively to our members.

VIN: 2G1WB58K081271463
Model: 2008 LS
Color: White with cloth interior
Miles: Approx. 5,500
Fuel: Dedicated CNG with 11 gge storage onboard for range of 240 city ~ 350 highway
Trunk: Almost double that of a new Civic GX

Note with the EPA cert we cannot entertain offers from folks in California or states which have adopted CARB standards.

It already has the Utah Clean Fuel plate for HOV lane access and as a Utah-registered LLC we can take the state tax credit if a Utah buyer wants us to assist in passing thru $2,500 in savings. Also as the Manufacturer we have not "put this vehicle into service" so the federal 2,500 credit is available to any buyer. Folks in Oklahoma and Colorado can likely claim 1/2 the $11,000 incremental cost on their state taxes too.

We are into the vehicle $19,350 and the conversion fee would normally be at least $11,000 from any of our installers. Please click on my name above and send a Private Message if you are interested in making an offer.

Priority goes to those who have been the most helpful to our CNGchat community (time on the chat board, number of posts, etc.).

[Andy Kmetz]

Re: Our CNG Impala EPA lab vehicle is up for grabs

I am interested in buying the Impalla. Either yours or getting a kit from Tom Sewell. I'm either going to get an Impalla or a new Honda GX and want it by year end. I do need to sell my 2004 Honda but hope to get that done in the next few weeks and apply that money to a new purchase. Would you take a bid at your cost? I'm currently looking for a used 2008 Impalla to have the kit put on the car. Andy in Tulsa Oklahoma

[younkin]

Re: Our CNG Impala EPA lab vehicle is up for grabs

Can you tell us who made the conversion kit for it? Jim

[John Mitton]

Re: Our CNG Impala EPA lab vehicle is up for grabs

Jim,
It is our own proprietary calibration of the factory PCM. Everything else is off-the-shelf components.

[younkin]

Re: Our CNG Impala EPA lab vehicle is up for grabs

I was wondering which type of CNG system it is, who makes the components.

[camryman]

Re: Our CNG Impala EPA lab vehicle is up for grabs

John if you put on 2K more miles you can sell it to anyone in California. When bringing in a non carb car into California, the car has to have over 7500 miles before it can be registered in the state,

An example would be diesel cars that are not Carb certified, New jeep liberty diesels, are Not sold in California, but if you buy it out of state used with over 7.5K miles it can be registered in California,

Hence problem solved if you want to sell the car to a California party. All they would have to do is drive it back from MI the 2000 miles and you would be over 7.5K miles. Registration issue solved.

[larrycng]

Re: Our CNG Impala EPA lab vehicle is up for grabs

Be careful on that statement. When a car comes into Calif, it will have to go through a SMOG check to get registered. If the person doing the SMOG insection is not on the ball, you might get through (and it might get caught later). If the person doing the SMOG inspetion is on the ball, the car will have to go to the referee. In talking with one of the referees the car will fail the vehicle if it is not a CARB certified kit.

To be fair, I have heard from "someone" who talk to someone in Sacramento that the vehicle can be brought into the state and registered. Now we have the typical left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing. I have ask the person from whom I received the information to give me a source. I will check with that source and my sources in BAR and the referee contractors and try a get an "actual stright story" (if one exists)

Personally, I agree that an EPA kit should be allowed into California. This is direction in which I will work. We have a precedent in terms of allowing Federally certified (EPA) gasoline powered vehicles to be licensed in Calif. However, the Rousch LPG Ford F-150 is not legal for sale (new) in Calif according to the underhood emission label on the vehicle. If the F-150 will be allowed to be registered in Calif as a used vehicle -- I haven't ask the question of the referee on anyone else.

Look like I will be on the phone to Sacrament on Monday -- stay tuned, film at eleven.

Larrycng

[CraziFuzzy]

Re: Our CNG Impala EPA lab vehicle is up for grabs

Larry, as an Owner of an EPA-certified / non-CARB vehicle in California, I would definitely like to hear your results. It would make things at smog time much easier if I knew what the REAL rules are, and more importantly, the source.

[camryman]

Re: Our CNG Impala EPA lab vehicle is up for grabs

The problem here in California is no one has a clue.

The Rousch LPG Ford F-150 is not legal for sale (new) in Calif But the F-150 will be allowed to be registered in Calif as a used vehicle If it has more than 7500 miles at the time of sale and entry in California.

The Smog stations will not have a clue and the DVM,they don't even know half the time what the law is.
The DMV was going to register my honda gx as a gasoline car when I brought it into the state and had it inspected at the DMV. I Had to point out and instsit they were making an error on my registration card before I left the office. After an hour of discussions and looking up the registration codes they found they're error.

You could call and ask and get 10 diffrent answers. The fact is a Federal 49 state used car with 7500 miles and a federal emmissions sticker and the vehicle should be register-able in California. Read the DMV web site.

http://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/brochures/fast_facts/ffvr29.htm

[siai47]

Re: Our CNG Impala EPA lab vehicle is up for grabs

Do you have any photographs of the Impala posted on this site?

[John Mitton]

Re: Our CNG Impala EPA lab vehicle is up for grabs

I will look for some photos on my hard drive and post them here.

The car is likely sold, however. Sorry for the delay in updating everyone. We have been busy cranking out some vehicles in Phoenix for our fleet customers, and our installers have been flying in to get trained... it has been a busy week!

[larrycng]

Re: Our CNG Impala EPA lab vehicle is up for grabs

John if you put on 2K more miles you can sell it to anyone in California. When bringing in a non carb car into California, the car has to have over 7500 miles before it can be registered in the state,

An example would be diesel cars that are not Carb certified, New jeep liberty diesels, are Not sold in California, but if you buy it out of state used with over 7.5K miles it can be registered in California,

Hence problem solved if you want to sell the car to a California party. All they would have to do is drive it back from MI the 2000 miles and you would be over 7.5K miles. Registration issue solved.

It is 11 o'clock and here is the film.

Camryman, I stand corrected on the Rousch LPG F-150, according to BAR it will probably be let in, as will the Jeep liberity and both for the reason; they were factory vehicles. BAR also stated there may need to be some additional paper work supplied with the Ford because of Rousch's reputation, they tend to push the edge kind of close. With the factory emission label, even with its statement about Calif sales, there will be little problem.

The question that was asked was of a BAR prepresentative (fairly high up)and one of the Referee was; Can a 2008 Chevrolet Impala with 8,500 miles, that has an EPA certified conversion (not a factory vehicle) be registered in California? The first response was, does the conversion have a CARB certification? Answer –No. Second response from BAR; “Was the vehicle converted after it was originally sold? Answer --yes.

Both the BAR representative and one of the referees responded it could not be registered in California. The conversion would be required to have a CARB certification, E.O. number, to be allowed to be registration in California. I have not yet had a response from CARB. If there is anything different I will post it.

To quote a DMV document from a previous post; “If you are a California resident and acquire a new car, truck, or motorcycle from another state, it must be certified to meet California smog laws in order to be registered here.” Yes there are exception, however alternate fuel conversion are not listed as one of the exceptions.

I agree that the rules need to relaxed. I can't see any reason why an EPA certified conversion can not be registered in California especially since 49 state cars can be registered, after meeting certain requirements; the Rousch F-150 and the Jeep liberity being examples. However the rules are the rules; work within the system to get the rules changed.

One last comment raised by the BAR Rep. If these conversion kits (non CARB) do get into Calif., by hook, crook, or inspector stupidity, what happens to the person who buys the vehicle; not knowing the conversion legalities. They gets caught down the road and have to sell the vehicle out of state or bear the cost of changing it back to gasoline. If the vehicle is sold within Calif, the Smog, under Calif law is the sellers responsibility and purchaser has legal recourse.

What about the case of a vehicle that was already registered in Calif, and the owner has the converson done out of state; California does no require a Smog for the first 5 years? The vehicle will not pass a legal, competent smog after 5 years, because of the non CARB kit. What then? I hope the owners are fully informed of the potental problems by a professional, well informed conversion shop.

Some things to think about.

Larrycng

[camryman]

Re: Our CNG Impala EPA lab vehicle is up for grabs

A law suit would be a good test for the rule, but then they would just change the rules. It's ok for a factory vehicle, but not ok for a 49 state fed approved conversion. Interesting

[larrycng]

Re: Our CNG Impala EPA lab vehicle is up for grabs

I won't have final answer from Carb until next week; they are checking with legal.

I have ask the question about the Impala with several different senarios that should have application to any vehicle with similar circumstances and cover most situations i.e.; Calif vs non Calif vehicle, vehicle converted in or out California.

I'll include my email to Carb to keep things clear and so CARB doesn't have to answer the same question many, many times.

Larrycng

[camryman]

Re: Our CNG Impala EPA lab vehicle is up for grabs

If no one else states it, Thanks for doing this!!!!!!!!