CNG experts needed: Nitrous and CNG

[peakay]

OK, so I had this wacky idea to add nitrous oxide to my crown vic for more power and just for fun. A standard "wet" nitrous kit would not work unless i added a conventional gasoline fuel cell and routed plumbing for it, etc. Way more involved and dangerous than I care to take on.

However, there are "dry" kits which trick the mass air flow sensor to add more fuel to go with the oxygen-dense nitrous you are injecting.

Now what I don't know is how much a cng car's ecu would correct for this and if it will or can inject enough cng to compensate. I also don't know how the nitrous and cng would mix or combust together.

Anyone out there have a guess?

[butch schrier]

Re: CNG experts needed: Nitrous and CNG

Hello there...

While I do not claim to be an expert, here is what I know. Nitrous is very compatible with your CNG ecu mapping. When you go Nitrous enable it is only at wide open throttle. I dont know what year your Crown Vic is but it should have a fuel routine buried in the fuel map called "command enrichment" that at wide open throttle will help with the extra fuel needed for you to not be "nitrous rich".

Also, there are some gasoline dry kits that a regulator that blows nitrous across the fuel pressure regulator on a gasoline engine and holds the diaphragm until extra fuel is injected. In your case, anything under or around a 50 hp shot would not require any real trick modifications. Above that, timing must be pulled back, and there may be a need to further enrichen the fuel injected at wide open throttle.

Remember, nitrous is not flammable so it works well with any gasoline, alcohols, propane, or cng.

I hope this helps a little...

B

[Curtis]

Re: CNG experts needed: Nitrous and CNG

I don't know anything about the nitrous setup but what I do know is that if it's extra horsepower you are looking for, I did some consulting for Oscar Jackson (a member here) who is working on putting out a Supercharger for the GX later this year. It will be a strait bolt on situation and require a lot fewer brain cells to work out. He figures it will push an 06 or newer GX to about 160hp and increase the gas mileage at hiway cruising by a couple of mpg. We can't wait Oscar. By the way, Oscar is "Jackson Racing". A legend in the racing community.

[Lakewood90712]

Re: CNG experts needed: Nitrous and CNG

Ford did make a "police interceptor" package version of the cng crown vic, but few were sold. Major power increase.Most have been retired from police duty and are now taxi cabs, just like retired gasoline police crown vic's.

High output ecu programming for the engine, in addition to special brakes, wheels, tires , alternator, radiator, trans cooler , etc. Also had "Puke resistant " plastic rear seat for taking drunks to jail.

Any ford dealer parts dept can look up special package parts.No guarantee of availability. If you are in so cal, Villa Ford in orange was a major cng dealer for state/city/county cng ford vehicles.

With any higher power , if you use it , will come higher fuel use.

A turbocharger can boost power AND economy , but you are looking at a very expensive experiment.

[peakay]

Re: CNG experts needed: Nitrous and CNG

Thanks Guys. if I move forward with this I will definitely let you know the results.

Curtis, interesting about the Jr supercharger. I had one on my old miata and there are several already in production for honda engines, so i would imagine most of the work would only be for fuel control.

I guess that is the part I'm a little confused about on a cng. I've played around enough with forced induction cars to have gone through rising rate fuel pressure regulators, hi flow pumps, piggyback ignition modules and completely programmable ecus, but I am just not clear on how easily or how much you can boost fuel on a cng for the extra air being pushed through the motor. My hunch is it shoudl be able to compensate for a lot of extra air since the cng is at such a high pressure. it would seem easy to pump more in given that.

I hadn't even thought about a supercharger...there are a lot of them made for the ford modular v8. hmmmm....

[lshuster]

Re: CNG experts needed: Nitrous and CNG

Sorry, but I'd like to dispute some claims made in this thread.

I own a 1996 Ford CNG Crown Vic P71 Police Interceptor. I have family members that have owned serveral gasoline Ford CV's and Merc GM's, aka as FoMoCo's "Panther" platform. So I've got a pretty good "seat-of-pants" dyno reference. In short, ALL CNG Panthers give up almost 40 hp and are saddled with about 250 lbs of extra weight. How do you spell D-O-G ??

The CNG P71 CV Police Interceptor (CVPI) engines are no more powerful or different than the CNG civilian versions. In fact, they are down-rated to 178 - 180 hp vs the 220 to 250 hp gasolone versions. All CNG Panther's got factory SINGLE exhaust and 2:73 rear axle ratios. In the annual performance testing conducted by the Michigan Highway Patrol the CNG's Panther perform on a par with the V6 Chevy Caprices. The P71 CVPI package does upgrade suspension, adds a beefier alternator, tranny cooler. The CNG P71 that I have did not get the factory installed, beefier 4R70W tranny and shorter, lighter, high-speed (vibration resistant) driveshaft that the gasoline P71 versions get. All the gasoline CVPI's I've ever seen have both these driveline upgardes, as well as dual exhausts, various (lower) rear axle ratios were installed in CVPI's.

I have heard that some Panther CNG owners have had some success modifying the EEC-V engine controller software, for additional power, working with Sniper Tuning's Special Forces product. With 130 Octane fuel, it seems Ford's drivetrain engineer (along with GFI) took a very conservative position, with respect to their OEM tuning of the 2V-4.6L Modular CNG engine. I suspect they were concerned about valve seat life? I don't think it would be that hard to "discover" or "recover" 20 to 40 "crank" hp, by just playing with fuel and timing maps.

But do you really want to give up mileage and range? Makes about as much sense as raising the speed limit on I-15 to 80 mph?

Lee Shuster
Salt Lake City

[turbocohen]

Re: CNG experts needed: Nitrous and CNG

OK, so I had this wacky idea to add nitrous oxide to my crown vic for more power and just for fun. A standard "wet" nitrous kit would not work unless i added a conventional gasoline fuel cell and routed plumbing for it, etc. Way more involved and dangerous than I care to take on.

However, there are "dry" kits which trick the mass air flow sensor to add more fuel to go with the oxygen-dense nitrous you are injecting.

Now what I don't know is how much a cng car's ecu would correct for this and if it will or can inject enough cng to compensate. I also don't know how the nitrous and cng would mix or combust together.

Anyone out there have a guess?

Let me know how you put more fuel through the injectors. The crown vic barely has enough fuel available while hot less dense fuel is metered. You will need higher static and dynamic range to burn more fuel or when you blow nitrous the extra oxygen will burn metal. If you raise fuel pressure too much the injector either opens slower of not at all.

Dont hurt yourself.

[jefo]

Re: CNG experts needed: Nitrous and CNG

any news on the sniper tuning special forces package?

[Black Mariah]

Re: CNG experts needed: Nitrous and CNG

Let me know how you put more fuel through the injectors. The crown vic barely has enough fuel available while hot less dense fuel is metered. You will need higher static and dynamic range to burn more fuel or when you blow nitrous the extra oxygen will burn metal. If you raise fuel pressure too much the injector either opens slower of not at all.

Dont hurt yourself.

With gasoline engines, the way you put more fuel through the injectors is one of the following:
1. Increase fuel pressure (not sure this would be possible on a CNG vehicle, as the low pressure side is already 125 psi.)
2. Increase injector pulse rate (this is probably possible with CNG, but eventually the injector on any engine will get to 100% duty cycle, and then it can't flow any more fuel).
3. Replace existing injectors with large injectors which flow more fuel for the same pulse rate as the existing (smaller injectors).

Any of these approaches on a modern vehicle requires either a) reprogramming the existing ECU or b) reprogramming the engine an fuel management by using a 3rd party ECU/Controller.

In the gasoline world, there's lot's of support for the above tasks. That's not to say it's easy, but just that there is information available and people before you have done the testing and products are available. In the CNG world, you're going to be kinda on your own, and you will have to have a way to tune and test your setup (on a dyno) and have a lot of specialized knowledge.

[cowboy]

Re: CNG experts needed: Nitrous and CNG

howbout using a impco draft regulater and putting the draft tube in the intake and tie the the on off soilnoid to the goofy gas switch so that when it gets power than the regulater would feed by vacum and could be ajusted by a restricter bolt like the 70s through the top of the air cleaner conversions just add a t after the hp regulater to impco 0 pressure regulater and leave the ecu alone should still pass epa as we know you would only us it for off road racing might have to clear the ecu to pass when you get back on road and want more cng just back the bolt out

[Curtis]

Re: CNG experts needed: Nitrous and CNG

Not being overly technically/mechanically endowed... it sounds both dangerous and ill advised, particularly if attempted by a shade tree mechanic.

[larrycng]

Re: CNG experts needed: Nitrous and CNG

I think you're in the ball park Cowboy. I would duplicate the gasoline system. A separate nozzle and regulator for the CNG set below the throttle body as I have seen done with the gasoline side of a "conventional" nitrous system. Adjust the second pressure regulator to provide the necessary fuel to complement the amount of nitrous used. Since this would be used only at WOT you would not have to worry about variations in throttle opening. Use a LP lock off to control flow on the CNG siide activated by the same switch as the nitrous. Both items being gaseous would mix easily in the intake manifold.

I think this would be a little bit safer since every thing would be below the throttle.

Another presepctive

[cowboy]

Re: CNG experts needed: Nitrous and CNG

had not thought of putting it below t plate but I like it thats why we all work well together toot toot

[cowboy]

Re: CNG experts needed: Nitrous and CNG

Not being overly technically/mechanically endowed... it sounds both dangerous and ill advised, particularly if attempted by a shade tree mechanic.

it is us shade tree mechcanics that can fix things not just change the parts that the computer tells us to as we know what makes it work how many dealer tecks can tell you what the 4 strokes are in a for stroke motor much less draw it how many of the can rebuild a starter or alt much less a eng or trans if we cant get the parts we make them ie if I cant get brushes for a starter I buy a biger set than mill them to fit oh the tecks of today dont know how to mill? shucks I have had to mill things on the side of the road and started with the sidewalk and finshed with my wet rock I have never replaced a high pressure regulater as I rebuild them most of the time for less than 200 dollers but the dealer tecks just bolt a new one on at what cost just because they cant build it?so untill they know how it works leave us shade tree mechcanics alone now dont get me wrong there some damm good tecks out there but there a lot that should not change tail litght bulbs my kid drives a olds that we towed from the dealer that had most every sencer and the computer changed and it would not stay running it took me about 4 hours to find the problem it was some wires on the crossmember that had been striped buy a broken belt car had a brand new belt so due to a teck not looking for the real problem the customer bought a new car and my kid rides in a damm nice olds good for me bad for the former owner

[cowboy]

Re: CNG experts needed: Nitrous and CNG

I have thought about this if I was going to do this I would go with the injector tubes under the throtle plate and for the cng I would run a lpg lock off on the low side of the high puressure regulater than a second regulator set at about 50 to 75 psi than a orfice and control the cng by ajusting the psi you will have to expearment on orfice size I would not try to set this up without a pyrometer as if you run lean it will melt your pistons good luck