Cng in Brazil

[jofecopa]

Hi,

I was on a trip to Brazil recently and noticed that CNG down there seems to be a much easier to have, install, maintain and operate. I'm new to the forum and to cng as a whole but it seems like quite a complicated thing here in the US. Here are some things I compared.

Starting by the filling stations here they are rare, in awkward places, and often you need to go through the hassle of a special card to even use them. In Brazil I noticed that CNG is available in most gas stations (in the states who have cng) and instead of filling it up with a special pump with that special nozzle they fill the tanks through the engine compartment with a simple hose that looks a lot like a standard air nozzle for inflating your tires. It seems like it's not as quick as the ones here but definitely not too slow since busy gas stations use them.

I did a little research and found out that the CNG kits known as "kit gas" down there start at about $350 to $1700 depending on the complexity and range (cylinder size). What's interesting also is how common and easy it appears to have these kits installed. I saw them in a variety of cars VW, Fiat, Ford, Chevy S10, some where even older cars from the late 80's to early 90's without fuel infection.

So i guess what i'm trying to figure out with this post is why is CNG such a mystical thing in the US? It requires either a lot of labor and headaches or some complex expensive Honda when in Brazil people are installing these $400 dollar kits and driving away on the clean stuff with so much ease? Conspiracy? I dunno but it just seems like cng in the states is over complicated.

As far as safety issues, i heard that like here people there have to have cylinders up to date and have their systems checked by a DMV that appears to be 10 times more annoying then the ones here ( think california smog stuff but worse) every car that is bought or sold must go through physical inspection regardless of year etc.

Maybe it has to do with the fact that the largest energy company in Brazil is state owned and foreign oil companies have only been allowed to fully enter the market within the last decade or so...
Any insights?

[Amfuel]

Re: Cng in Brazil

My guess is that with 1.5 - 2 million CNG vehicles in Brazil that they know what they are doing and have the necessary compliance laws in place where needed for safety.

The US? Its all politics... at least up to this point.

[freedml]

Re: Cng in Brazil

One of the costs of out-of-control environmental micro-management by the EPA. Why can't a CNG 'kit' installed by a user pass an emissions test (every so often) and go on its merry way?

[cngacrossusa]

Re: Cng in Brazil

Answer is really simple . . . . . . because "powers that be" don't want CNG to succeed! Politicians, BIG OIL, and Car Manufacturers have been so in bed with status quo that they never gave CNG any real effort. All three had to get to near death bed to have a change of heart.

Compare to radical turn-a-round that Ford now is doing with Eco-boost fuel sipping engines (advertising 30 mpg V6 w/ 300 HP Mustang), and bringing for first time an excellent car from Europe (Fiesta) to the USA . . . .what a concept !! Ford is also equipping Transit Connect (small delivery van) with CNG in USA just like it does in Europe / Asia.

See statistics at IANGV website:
http://iangv.org/tools-resources/statistics.html
which shows Pakistan leading the way with cng vehicles at 2.3M while Argentina, Iran and Brazil all are around 1.6M to 1.8M vehicles. Ask yourself how can it be that USA is the richest country in world, yet so stupid not to implement CNG as USA has paltry estimated 150,000 cng vehicles (IANGV website shows 110,000 vehicles but other sources round that up to 150,000 vehicles for USA).

It's high time for CNG REVOLUTION here in USA . . . pour out massive resources and let's get going !!

[Black Mariah]

Re: Cng in Brazil

Since you were just in Brazil, you probably also noticed that every filling station also has Ethanol right next to the gasoline and CNG. I was just in Brazil last month, and I noticed that the stations which are outside the dense urban areas always have CNG. In very dense urban areas, CNG is a little more hit or miss -- but EVERY station has both Ethanol and Gasoline.

How did this Ethanol thing happen? Easy answer: Brazil was ruled by a military dictatorship from 1964 through 1985. In the 1970's (during the "energy crisis") the military dictatorship just decided that they were going to move away from foreign oil. They invested in the Ethanol infrastructure, funded research on sugar cane distillation and even genome research for more productive sugar cane, located the Ethanol production plants near the sugar cane fields, mandated that any car sold in the country had to be able to run on Ethanol, etc. In short, they just "did it", because they didn't have to have the political debate and deal with special interest groups, elections, etc. I suspect the same thing also happened with CNG. Sometimes a totalitarian government can accomplish things a democracy can not (or at least can do it faster).

[cngacrossusa]

Re: Cng in Brazil

Yep you're right, Black Mariah, that dictatorships can get more done than "democracy" of good ole USA. Look at Iran which has has 1.6M cng vehicles and are growing exponentially . . . . why, because dictator goverment is mandating use of cng, even though petrol is super cheap in Iran. Smart thinking too to use cng locally in Iran and continue to sell crude oil/petrol to stupid countries like USA!! Look at stats as Iran has 1.6M vehicles with only 1,000 pumps while USA has paltry 150,000 cng vehicles with 1,300 pumps.

Venezuela is another example of dictator gettin er done as Chavez has mandated that car manufacturers produce at least 10% of all vehicles sold in Venezuela as cng !! Article I read said Nissan would be ready to go either in 2010 or 2011.

Doesn't take too much rocket science to figure out that $1.25/gge cng in a vehicle getting 30 to 35 mpg (Cavalier or Civic GX) works out to 3 to 4 CENTS a mile for fuel cost!!! Compare to Prius on premium petrol which would have to get 85 to 90 mpg to equate to that 3 cents a mile. Further, cost of Prius is much higher (and less overall lifetime) than say a Civic GX. Whole story on cng is car makers don't really want to build a car "so good" that it will last 15 to 20 years and be super reliable so it doesn't generate all kinds of parts/dealer repair business. It's simply USA is too greedy!!

BIG OIL in USA also working towards EXPORTING our abundant cng (by using LNG) and selling to China and India, etc. ARRRGGHH!

[Amfuel]

Re: Cng in Brazil

Yep, Achmedinijad said build CNG and the country said yes sir. I tell people about Iran converting to CNG at the rate of 30,000 per month and they don't believe me. Then I tell them that the dictator wasn't smiling when he told them to do it.

[72Blazer]

Re: Cng in Brazil

You know, it's not just the government. There's definitely a CNG industry bias designed to make sure only they have the ability to put CNG in your car, regardless of the year.

[Curtis]

Re: Cng in Brazil

Gee, I guess the same thing applies to the auto industry. I used to be able to work on my cars. They keep conspiring to make them too complicated for me to work on, ergo there's an auto industry bias designed to make sure only they can work on your car...

I pump my own gas and built my own station.... but who else would put cng in your car but the cng industry?

[cripple_rooster]

Re: Cng in Brazil

Since you were just in Brazil, you probably also noticed that every filling station also has Ethanol right next to the gasoline and CNG. I was just in Brazil last month, and I noticed that the stations which are outside the dense urban areas always have CNG. In very dense urban areas, CNG is a little more hit or miss -- but EVERY station has both Ethanol and Gasoline.

How did this Ethanol thing happen? Easy answer: Brazil was ruled by a military dictatorship from 1964 through 1985. In the 1970's (during the "energy crisis") the military dictatorship just decided that they were going to move away from foreign oil. They invested in the Ethanol infrastructure, funded research on sugar cane distillation and even genome research for more productive sugar cane, located the Ethanol production plants near the sugar cane fields, mandated that any car sold in the country had to be able to run on Ethanol, etc. In short, they just "did it", because they didn't have to have the political debate and deal with special interest groups, elections, etc. I suspect the same thing also happened with CNG. Sometimes a totalitarian government can accomplish things a democracy can not (or at least can do it faster).

I live in Brazil and my dad is a retired sergeant from Brazilian Air Force. About the ethanol: it was not mandatory for all vehicles, but gassers had higher taxes and ethanol was subsided to cost less than gas since mileage was slower. But i believe the military presidents should have developed a biodiesel program alongside the ethanol program, in brazilian northeast there is a lot of desertified land that could be used to plant castorbean, that grows up easily in every portion of brazilian territory.

[cripple_rooster]

Re: Cng in Brazil

I did a little research and found out that the CNG kits known as "kit gas" down there start at about $350 to $1700 depending on the complexity and range (cylinder size). What's interesting also is how common and easy it appears to have these kits installed. I saw them in a variety of cars VW, Fiat, Ford, Chevy S10, some where even older cars from the late 80's to early 90's without fuel infection.

So i guess what i'm trying to figure out with this post is why is CNG such a mystical thing in the US? It requires either a lot of labor and headaches or some complex expensive Honda when in Brazil people are installing these $400 dollar kits and driving away on the clean stuff with so much ease?

Most of the cheaper kit gás are fumigation type, known here simply as "aspirado" while sequential multi-point systems are known as "injetado". Kit aspirado is not recommended for some newer engines but is still widely used.