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  • Actual Cost of Home Refueling

    Am I correct in my calculation that home refueling (using So Cal Gas' G-NGVR rate) is about $1.06/GGE using their 1/2008 rates? (~1.25 Therms/GGE)

    How stable has the G-NGVR rate been? Is this rate safe (tiered rates would devastate the economics of home refueling)?

    Is this, generally, the most advantageous rate for home refuelers?
    BiggJohn
    -------------------
    2000 CNG Camry
    VRA Wannabe

  • #2
    Re: Actual Cost of Home Refueling

    The rate is the same for all gas used, so a household with using much more over the standard residential "Baseline" for any purpose has additional savings!........I am not sure about the electric , I think it get's no special rate for compressor electric use.

    The real problem with home fueling is Fuelmaker. Equipment purchase, install , and rebuild at specified service life is as much or more than fuel + electricity cost.

    Electric is about 2kw per gge. to compress. Add in an unscheduled repair and it really gets bad. Fuelmaker only provides a one year warranty , not covering most of the equipment life. If they trust the product , why not back it for the 6,000 hour service life ?

    This is why I canceled a phill order, even with the AQMD rebate.

    Until small compressors get into mass production, home fueling is not cheaper, just convenient.

    An onboard compressor would be nice, but not planned by honda any time soon.

    Just my 2cents worth after 6 years and 140,000 miles on a cng Crown Cic and Honda GX.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Actual Cost of Home Refueling

      Hi,
      What kind of costs have you seen for the installation of a fuelmaker?
      Thanks,
      tjs

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Actual Cost of Home Refueling

        To install a "Phill" , with ME pulling the and paying for the permit , ME running the gas line, and dedicated electric circuit to the point of install, the lower of 2 bids was $1,450. this is for about 2 hours of the installers time and 40 miles of travel from his shop! this was the LOWER bid. Both dealers refused to do the job on time and material. (about 2-3 hours at $90-95 per hour)

        I still have a HVAC contractors lic. , but fuelmaker will not sell to me unless I attend a day of training (it is free) and sign up as a dealer , supplying a rather large liability insurance policy, naming fuelmaker as an additional insured party. THAT is why the installers charge so much .

        If you can find a used Phill, or FMQ , anyone qualified could install it. I am not sure if Fuelmaker would rebuild and ship back a Phill unit to other than the original owner if you found a used one and wanted it rebuilt. The FMQ's are rebuilt on site.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Actual Cost of Home Refueling

          I love my FMQ. Really any HVAC installer can pull the 1 inch line and 240v power. It is a no-brainer, but of course must be installed outside.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Actual Cost of Home Refueling

            Great observations, Lakewood90712. I agree that compression will use ~ 2 kWh/GGE which adds roughly 25 cents to the unit cost. We're up to $1.31.

            I had long ago ruled out the Phill because of it's low pump volume, short hose, high service costs and short useful life. I'm on the market for a used FMQ2. I live in Lakewood & both So Cal Gas & City Hall have given green lights to an outdoor compressor setup (I still have to work out details with Bldg & Safety).

            Does anyone have a sense of what a FMQ compressor rebuild + service call goes for in the LA area?

            Because of SCE's tiered rates & relatively low baseline (~10.15 kWh/day in this region - or 5 GGE/day), I'm exploring their Domestic Time-of-Use rate (TOU-D-2). This rate eliminates the penalty for exceeding baseline consumption & generally benefits customers who can avoid using most of their electricity weekdays between 10 a.m. and 6 p.m.
            BiggJohn
            -------------------
            2000 CNG Camry
            VRA Wannabe

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Actual Cost of Home Refueling

              Originally posted by BiggJohn View Post
              Am I correct in my calculation that home refueling (using So Cal Gas' G-NGVR rate) is about $1.06/GGE using their 1/2008 rates? (~1.25 Therms/GGE)

              How stable has the G-NGVR rate been? Is this rate safe (tiered rates would devastate the economics of home refueling)?

              Is this, generally, the most advantageous rate for home refuelers?
              Your calculations are correct. I came up with $1.066. The G-NGVR rate is a special incentive rate for people doing home refueling. You apply for it after you have a VRA installed and it's good until you no longer have the unit/car. This simple Flat Rate does away with the Tiered schedule and applies to all home usage. And, yes, for most home owners this is the most advantage rate available through SoCal Gas.

              As far as stability, rates have varied from about $.68 last October to about $1.60 (after Katrina, if memory serves me) but usually the rate seems to stay right around a dollar per gge. Since gas rates are set at the beginning of each month and are good for the entire month, the fuel price stays much more stable than gasoline.

              The G-NGVR rate discounts all gas use to the home probably saving you on the order of 15%-20% on your home gas bill and about 60% or more on your normal gasoline bill. You'll still save around 30%-40% over public refueling, specially given CE's pricing structure.
              [ATTACH=CONFIG]temp_4586_1441434431016_578[/ATTACH]

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Actual Cost of Home Refueling

                Originally posted by BiggJohn View Post
                Great observations, Lakewood90712. I agree that compression will use ~ 2 kWh/GGE which adds roughly 25 cents to the unit cost. We're up to $1.31.

                I had long ago ruled out the Phill because of it's low pump volume, short hose, high service costs and short useful life. I'm on the market for a used FMQ2. I live in Lakewood & both So Cal Gas & City Hall have given green lights to an outdoor compressor setup (I still have to work out details with Bldg & Safety).

                Does anyone have a sense of what a FMQ compressor rebuild + service call goes for in the LA area?

                Because of SCE's tiered rates & relatively low baseline (~10.15 kWh/day in this region - or 5 GGE/day), I'm exploring their Domestic Time-of-Use rate (TOU-D-2). This rate eliminates the penalty for exceeding baseline consumption & generally benefits customers who can avoid using most of their electricity weekdays between 10 a.m. and 6 p.m.
                The Fuelmaker representative in this area would be Gas Equipment Systems Inc (GESI) They can be reached at 909-466-6920. Do not expect good service or low prices. I hope they prove me wrong.
                [ATTACH=CONFIG]temp_4586_1441434431016_578[/ATTACH]

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Actual Cost of Home Refueling

                  Fm4 on e-bay now. 2 hose model, 3,000 psi only.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Actual Cost of Home Refueling

                    Curtis I am shocked at your response about GESI ( can you read sarcasm). you will get your best deal on a fm4 because it is 3000 psi. parts are still available. For the average driver a 3000 psi unit should be fine. You will probably see the same kind of fill as you would from a 3600 psi fast fill.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Actual Cost of Home Refueling

                      to do the actual math is almost imppossible... depending on how long the unit will be working... but i would say in the long run it's not cheaper than at the stations, but not more expensive either....

                      i often work long hours and drive 100 miles a day. so the fact that i do not have to find a gas station every other day is good enough for me... my guess at home i will be paying around $2.- a gallon, but will be saving 15 mins on my commute... if i'm in no rush i will fill in public if i find a good price... irvine is expensive, but yesterday i filled at $1.91 (irvine is $2.60)

                      to know that i can cut 30 to 60 mins a week and be home earlier is good enough for me...

                      don't buy a CNG car (or any other hybrid etc...) for saving money. because you won't but you will do your part to try to make our enviroment cleaner.

                      the phill install is a rip-off, almost $2k in my case for a simple basic install, but it sounds like i might be ok since it's seems to be a hassle to get all permits and fire dept. in my area... my qoute is all inclusive....

                      so after rebate the phill will cost me $3500.- (does that add a $1.- to my fuel cost ?)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Actual Cost of Home Refueling

                        I've got one better, between the gas line extention $3K and Phill of $3900. I'm looking at $7K in cost.
                        But, the State of Washington has the second highest gas tax in the country
                        along with the high oil price, we pay $3.50 gal.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Actual Cost of Home Refueling

                          http://www.lanl.gov/mst/engine/
                          check out this site.

                          This prototype was doing 140 gals a day.

                          If they could get these to work then you could make LNG at home( in theory) if you have LNP then you could use it to make CNG without a compressor( in theory)

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