a few comments and questions please

[SimiValley]

Good morning fellow CNG owners

Besides having delays getting the car, paying over sticker, problems with delivery, the dealer, getting plates, still not getting the white HOV sticker, getting raked on the quote for the PHILL, and especially getting raked for the quote on a simple installation, the 8 week eta delay on delivery of the PHILL, the car runs ok.

Anyone else with so many problems?

Any other unit besides the PHILL to use at home?


Thank you

[mecklen]

Re: a few comments and questions please

Hmmm, your poll asks about satisfaction with the GX, but your post seems focus mostly on the PHILL. I got my GX last November with no delay and no price gouging (though I did pay sticker).

I answered the question in the poll and not the points made in your post.

Hope this helps,

[SimiValley]

Re: a few comments and questions please

Do you have a PHILL?

If so, if I amy ask, what did you pay for install?

How long to get a white sticker?

etc?

Thx

[CNGfamily]

Re: a few comments and questions please

No Phill for me... it wasn't even an option back in 2000. There are other appliances, I have a FMQ-2-36 that has moved with me to a second home. Original installation was indeed a case of price gouging; but I was able to do a lot of the work for second install myself and Dave at CNG Services of AZ was quite fair in pricing the setup late last year in the new location.

No sticker issues in AZ, but I can tell you that DMV here can screw up the paperwork and charge you too much and not get your alt fuel plates if you let them (this happened to me on three different occations... changing title on my daughters truck to put it in her name; registering for the first time a different alt fuel truck purchased from out of state, and a second time when selling that truck to a family friend)

[SimiValley]

Re: a few comments and questions please

Isnt the FMQ236 a PHILL unit?

Do you recall where it came from, and about how much?

Thx

[CNGfamily]

Re: a few comments and questions please

I think of the Phill as the inside the garage unit only (lower flow rate .4 GGE/hr for Phill v.s. the larger units that do about double the rate at .9 GGE/hr and have a much lower recurring cost). You're correct that they are both manufactured by the Fuelmaker company; I just didn't read your question that way.

As for where and how much... the company is no longer in business (this was during Arizona's "alt fuel fiasco"), total cost was whatever full retail cost was eight years ago, plus more than two grand to run the electric, plus over a grand to install and setup (I just poured the concrete slab and aranged for Southwest Gas to put in the meter, but did nothing else for this initial install) total cost (for a FMQ unit with a remote panel and a 20' flexhose) was just over $11K.

[freedml]

Re: a few comments and questions please

And so what were the 'unusual' problems you encountered?

[Curtis]

Re: a few comments and questions please

Do you have a PHILL?

If so, if I amy ask, what did you pay for install?

How long to get a white sticker?

etc?

Thx

Simi, dealing with FM has always had it's challenges. The units are made to order, thus the slow delivery times. Their installers have a free hand in pricing the install since they have a lock on doing the install. Install quotes generally range from $1500-$2500. A used FMQ2-36/FM-4 generally runs around the price of a new Phill, and you can install it yourself, given that you you can hire competitive plumbing and electrical contractors and get the proper permits/inspections without FM's personnel. Now that CE has bought them, it will only get better... or worse.

The demand for the cars still outstrips the availability of cars, and there will be 6 months where dealers can't even get card this year due to the movement of the Civics production out of Ohio. I don't see the pricing issue getting any better any time soon. The dealers are figuring out that they won't be able to replace the cars they sell until at least June of 09. Dealers aren't getting very many units to start the year out, which spell out another long dry spell at a time when the demand has reached historic proportion.

Have you applied for permission to install the Phill from the gas co yet? I think you may be in an area that has well gas, as opposed to pipeline quality gas. If you are turned down, let me know and I will get you the paperwork to get a waiver from CARB so you can refuel at home. Best of luck, and keep us informed... we're your best resource.

[Curtis]

Re: a few comments and questions please

By the way, the stickers usually take about 3 weeks, assuming you had your license # on the application.

[SimiValley]

Re: a few comments and questions please

I have applied and been approved by So Cal gas already.

Now I ordered the Phill, but after reading many posts, I am not sure if the Phill is the best way to go.

But also unable to find any used equipment.

[Curtis]

Re: a few comments and questions please

I personally look at the Phill based on the mileage driven. The unit wasn't meant to take care of the needs of a car driven over 100 miles per day. That would burn the unit out in about 3 1/2 years, according to the Fuelmaker literature I have. If it was me, I wouldn't buy one if I was driving more than about 50-75 miles a day. The guys here have penciled this thing every way there is. At 6,000 hrs of run time, I believe that's about 90,000 mi driven (correct me if I'm wrong)", you could get by with fueling at home about every other day or so and get a reasonable life span out of it.

The FM units (the larger ones) would run a (Phill) equivalent of 8,000 hrs. They shut down at 4,000 hrs, but pump twice as fast and run half as long. A Phill rebuild will run about $2700, and require shipping the unit to Canada. A FM rebuild is done on-site and costs about half as much.

...But the Phill looks really cool in the brochure. The FM's are basically "commercial", however they are the most sought after by high mileage drivers, of which there are many.

The guy that comes up with a home unit the size/price of a Phill, the speed of an FM, and the ability to put it indoors... the cng world will beat a path to your door. It's a tall order and maybe not feasible, but we can dream.

[Cal]

Re: a few comments and questions please

I have applied and been approved by So Cal gas already.

Now I ordered the Phill, but after reading many posts, I am not sure if the Phill is the best way to go.

But also unable to find any used equipment.

Simi -- I live in Santa Clarita and I also looked at buying the Phil (I commute 80+ miles every day). Curtis was correct in advising me to PASS on the Phil and buy a used outdoor appliance. I bought a used but completely rebuilt FM 4 for $5,500.00 -- from a CNGchat member. While the unit is more expensive than the Phil, the fill time is twice as fast and the number of rebuilds on the FM4, FM2, and FMQ2-36 is unlimited. Look at EbayMotors and Craigs list (this forum, too) for used FM units.

Good luck. Welcome to the family.

[SimiValley]

Re: a few comments and questions please

What is the smallest FM unit (or best one I should use) that you think I can get at a reasonable price?

And these need to be installed outdoors or indoors?

Part number?

[CNGfamily]

Re: a few comments and questions please

What is the smallest FM unit (or best one I should use) that you think I can get at a reasonable price?

And these need to be installed outdoors or indoors?

Part number?

Phill is the only indoor unit. FMQ2-36 and FM4 are outdoor. If you don't mind just filling to 3000 psi, the FM4s are usually available at a lower cost. Lots of good info on the following sticky: http://www.cngchat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23