An Idea for infrastructure development

[David Burklin]

OK, Up front, this isn't my idea... I found it on the Larry Burns (GM) blog that was linked in some other thread, but I think it has at least some merit. I added some of my own flavor to it.

The basic idea is that GM (or whatever other car maker) begin producing CNG vehicles. Obviously, the biggest obstacle is lack of demand, which stems at least partially from lack of fueling infrastructure.

What if (due to government incentive/mandate/tax break) the dealers who produce the vehicles also installed a publicly accessable fueling station at their dealerships.

It seems this could help our struggling auto industry by providing another source of income through fuel sales. At the same time, it would lead to a rapid deployment of stations, which in turn would lead to more customers being willing to buy NGVs since fuel supply wasn't an issue. Further, as the cars started to become mainstream, It seems current petrol stations would choose to capitalize on the tax incentives and demand for gas, and follow suite, further building the fueling structure.

I'm sure there are issues with the idea, but a bad idea is at least a starting point for debate and improvement.

What do you all think?

[ccgas]

Re: An Idea for infrastructure development

OK, Up front, this isn't my idea... I found it on the Larry Burns (GM) blog that was linked in some other thread, but I think it has at least some merit. I added some of my own flavor to it.

The basic idea is that GM (or whatever other car maker) begin producing CNG vehicles. Obviously, the biggest obstacle is lack of demand, which stems at least partially from lack of fueling infrastructure.

What if (due to government incentive/mandate/tax break) the dealers who produce the vehicles also installed a publicly accessable fueling station at their dealerships.

It seems this could help our struggling auto industry by providing another source of income through fuel sales. At the same time, it would lead to a rapid deployment of stations, which in turn would lead to more customers being willing to buy NGVs since fuel supply wasn't an issue. Further, as the cars started to become mainstream, It seems current petrol stations would choose to capitalize on the tax incentives and demand for gas, and follow suite, further building the fueling structure.

I'm sure there are issues with the idea, but a bad idea is at least a starting point for debate and improvement.

What do you all think?

This has always been the chicken and egg. which comes first why build fuel station at half a million or more cost with now demand. How can you have any demand if vehicles aren't available or reliable. The early CNG was modified LP with carbs , and had problems.
Now the technology has improved with fuel injection and the ability to control with factory computor it is more main stream. The biggest questions I get are where can I buy a vehicle (local) and how do I fuel it. With only one main home fueling company (fuelmaker) and pricing of the unit makes for harder look at going CNG. The minimum public infrastructure in some areas prevents larger conversions to cng. The cost for stations to do public prohibits the building of many stations. The fact that some fleets that some fleets have been opening access has helped the cause we still have to jump off and build more infrastructure. Which we are doing in our area. Hoping it will pay off.

[Curtis]

Re: An Idea for infrastructure development

I am talking with a company in central Ca that has a portable cng station that can be placed at a dealership, or any location. The trailer holds the compressor and storage. Permitting is simple because all you're dealing with is the dispenser and training post. Cost is around $270,000 and there may be money available to assist in the venture thru several different sources.

It is an innovative approach that offers many benefits, not the least of which is the speed at which the system can be in place, but cost savings as well. They are trying to work out how the system can be can be configured financially, ie co-venture, lease, sale, etc. and doing feasability studies to see if they can figure out how it might all work out.

Their primary target is initially Honda dealers selling GX's. Very seldom do you run into a business that thinks outside the box. Even when they do, often they lack the marketing and financing skills to figure out how the nuts and bolts of a great new idea have to be put into place to get the idea off the ground.

If any of you think you may be able to provide any piece of the puzzle for them, let me know and I will put you in contact with them. Please resist the urge to throw new ideas at them. What they need are solid answers to some of the challenges they face in getting this idea to fruition.

Clean Cities is already involved, although I don't yet know to what extent.
I have encouraged Honda to take a positive role in supporting any dealer that wishes to participate. I only wish that this opportunity had come my way before I started building my station. This would have saved me so much time and headaches.

So bottom line, I support the idea that you presented, and in some ways are way ahead of you.

[ccgas]

Re: An Idea for infrastructure development

The portable station sounds like good Idea, some problems it might encounter are more with building codes, I.E. emergency shut off distances needed as with normal stations.

[freedml]

Re: An Idea for infrastructure development

Then there's that expensive hunk of metal sitting at RPH -- hey Curtis, is it certified yet?

[Curtis]

Re: An Idea for infrastructure development

Then there's that expensive hunk of metal sitting at RPH -- hey Curtis, is it certified yet?

The grants have been secured, contracts signed and a timeline laid out by GESI... no later than January to be operational again. And all for an additional $156k... I should back charge them for the revenue loss and the fines paid to Weights & Measures. I'd guess that they paid a few themselves.

As for the portable stations, I wondered about those particular issues but fire codes vary from county to county, and as long as they achieve compliance... Are you in the industry ccgas?

[ajgiorgi]

Re: An Idea for infrastructure development

Wasn't I talking about this at Honda Dealerships. Remember Curtis...........

[300mileclub]

A pair of mobile natural gas fueled CNG skids with Gemini compressors were built for TECO in Tampa FL in 2015 by Micro-Design of Dallas TX:

http://www.micro-design.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/cng_main_mobile.pdf

http://www.ngvjournal.com/mdi-delivers-two-portable-cng-skids-to-teco-energy/

[300mileclub]

CNG FuelLink is a compact, mobile compressor driven by a gas engine that is completely independent from any external power supply. This unit is designed for total portability and to maximize either mobile on stationary storage utilization. Mario Pirraglia started Broadwind, having been with BAUER in 2014. Broadwind Energy 3240 S Central Ave Cicero IL

The concept of employing a compressor with a radial arrangement of pistons to fill storage and then to boost the output with a hydraulic intensifier was originally used in the Pinnacle mobile units and now commonly found in TrilliumCNG stationary stations. This arrangement can continue to fill the vehicle tank from gas in the storage tanks even when the vehicle tank is at a higher pressure. Virtual pipeline operator, XNG, is presently working with Broadwind and Safe on several fueling projects. XNG-supplied daughter stations? Stay tuned!

http://www.bwen.com/sites/default/files/bwen-safe_mobile_100hp_v8_v5_final_web-optimized-e3.pdf

http://www.bwen.com/sites/default/files/bwen-safe_hydraulic_unit_technical_paper_-_web_sized_v2.pdf

CNG_mobile_Broadwind.png

[300mileclub]

NEOgas of Brazil is a leading provider of off-pipeline natural gas solutions in Latin America. The Company is utilizing its own proprietary equipment design and technology and operates in Brazil, Peru, Mexico and Colombia where it supplies CNG by trailer to remote areas that are not serviced by existing gas pipelines. NEOgas two main customer segments are retail CNG stations and industrial consumers. NEOgas operations are structured in clusters which usually encompass a compression station, a set of trailers to transport the gas, and delivery units (Reduction and Control Unit-RCU and Hydraulic Pressure Unit – HPU) at client premises. Depending on the existing infrastructure, new compression stations are built or existing ones, from third parties, are used.

http://neogas.us/cng-for-fleets/

CNG_virtualpipe_neogas.png CNG_virtualpipe_neogas1.png

[300mileclub]

Advance Fuel Systems Corp (AFSC) has posted one of its mobile CNG fast-fill fueling appliances on eBay. Made in Tulsa OK, the trailer having DOT bottles and the compressor is available as H series (30 SCFM) or G series (75 SCFM). AFSC is the US importer for CIRRUS Compressors (French):

https://www.advancefuelsystems.com/AFSCProducts.html