Can somebody clue me in (NGVs get little press attention)

[CNG4RD]

I am a new cng owner and totally happy. So here is my question.

Why doesn't CNG get the press that other alternative fuel vehicles seem to get?

All of the so called 'problems' with alternative fuel choices seem far less serious with CNG vehicles than with any other alternative.

1. Costly technology, CNG uses a modified gasoline engine, not a back breaking research cost here. we have ten years of proven vehicle use, great reliability.
2. Infrastructure, i can't remember a state where natural gas wasn't available to a homeowner if they wanted it, and buy a PHILL. `
3. Proven reserves/renewable, the US has a 75 year supply of CNG and it certainly seems there are lots of ways to make gas on this planet.
4. Low emissions/carbon footprint, see the press on the honda civic gx

I just am surprised that CNG comes across as a footnote in most press and government alternative fuel conversations.

CNG works, it is available right now, vehicles can be found for cheap, gas is cheap, and i don't spend a penny on gasoline anymore, how great is that.

here is an interesting article i found through wikipedia

http://www.westgov.org/wga/publicat/TransFuels08.pdf

One other note, wikipedia has a link to another cng chat that has far less traffic than cng chat, seems someone should update wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gas_vehicle

[freedml]

Re: Can somebody clue me in

You've got it mostly right.


"Why doesn't CNG get the press that other alternative fuel vehicles seem to get?
--got me. it's getting more, but not what it deserves. Honda isn't helping. They have a 1 minute ad which highlights the NEW Civic line. Why didn't they take 3 seconds to mention the GX?


"All of the so called 'problems' with alternative fuel choices seem far less serious with CNG vehicles than with any other alternative.

"1. Costly technology, CNG uses a modified gasoline engine, not a back breaking research cost here. we have ten years of proven vehicle use, great reliability.
--right!

"2. Infrastructure, i can't remember a state where natural gas wasn't available to a homeowner if they wanted it, and buy a PHILL. `
--well, some states don't have many or any commercial public stations, and Fuelmaker only sells Phill in a few states. But, you can buy other Fuelmaker models and get service from the local Fuelmaker dealer (some of whom, somewhat inexplicably, have nothing to do with Phill)

"3. Proven reserves/renewable, the US has a 75 year supply of CNG and it certainly seems there are lots of ways to make gas on this planet.
--amen. lots of reserves, biogas, landfill gas, etc.

4. Low emissions/carbon footprint, see the press on the honda civic gx
--lower than gasoline, but only by about 30%, so not really 'low'

"I just am surprised that CNG comes across as a footnote in most press and government alternative fuel conversations.
--I wish it even got a footnote most of the time!

"CNG works, it is available right now, vehicles can be found for cheap, gas is cheap, and i don't spend a penny on gasoline anymore, how great is that.

"here is an interesting article i found through wikipedia

"http://www.westgov.org/wga/publicat/TransFuels08.pdf

"One other note, wikipedia has a link to another cng chat that has far less traffic than cng chat, seems someone should update wikipedia

"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gas_vehicle[/quote]

-- I added a link to cngchat to this and several other pages

[Dmitry]

Re: Can somebody clue me in

Here's Alan Greenspan in his book The Age of Turbulence, my bold italics.

'...In addition to increased supplies from abroad, North America still has numerous unexploited sources of gas. Major quantities of recoverable gas reserves are located in Alaska and the northern territories of Canada, and reserves of coal-bed methane and so-called tight sands gas in the Mountain States are significant. Gas-to-liquids technology offers major future benefits through the conversion of natural gas into liquid transportation fuels. But for now, rapid advancement of this technology is being delayed by the sharp rise in all energy project construction costs, and by difficuties in scaling up pilot plants to industrial size" p. 452.

And this is the person who preaches the world the power of "the invisible hand", yet he fails to mention CNG as a viable alternative fuel today. In this regard 'wild west" emerging economies, like Russia, are more indicative - ever since privatization it's massive public transportation complex and individual drivers convert to LPG. Major factor being it's two times less expensive than petrol. Average conversion kit plus installation is $500. And yes, they blow up occasionally and catch on fire, but so do regular cars. And from what I hear CNG is coming too, the stumbling block - cylinders.

Now another quote from Greenspan.

'In the more distant future, perhaps a generation or more ahead, lies the potential to develop productive capacity from natural-gas hydrates. Located in marine sediments and the Arctic, these icelike structures store immense quantities of methane. Although the size of these potential resources is not well measured, estimates from the US Geological Survey indicate that the United States alone may possess two hundred quadrillion cubic feet of natural gas in the form of hydrates. To put this figure in perspective, the world's proved reserves of natural gas are on the order of six quadrillion cubic feet" pp. 452-453.

So, CNG4RD, if you find out why, let me know. I bet we have to interogate insiders like Curt - they just don't want to tell us.

[camryman]

Re: Can somebody clue me in

Oil/ Auto Biz and government conspiracy against all alt fuel vehicles to keep us addicted to gasoline. You haven't seen any cng alt fuel commercials, but there sure were a whole lot of E 85 TV spots recently. The Bush family and Binladin's are in the oil biz together and they want to keep the oil monopoly in the usa alive.

[c2sox]

Re: Can somebody clue me in

As Camryman said, it's basically big oil stroking our politicians and the auto industry afraid to do anything about it. Too much at stake for the oil industry to lose. I can imagine all the hand shaking going on behind the scenes between the Saudi's, oil industry, auto makers and our polititians.

Hopefully the size of the CNG users continue to grow worldwide to the point that the auto industry can no longer afford to ignore us.

[Andy-Paul]

Re: Can somebody clue me in

This reply might sound like a long-winded college professor. Please bear with me.

I think the issue is not about conspiracies (past petroleum lobby actions excepted--look into CNG taxi service for the District of Columbia in the early 80s for some truly gritty history) but a combination of ignorance and gut mistrust at the levels of public commentary and Joe Sixpack, respectively. When we cry conspiracy, it makes us look like a bunch of wild-eyed paranoiacs.

I believe the case for methane as safer and cleaner than gasoline, given the emplaced safety standards, has pretty well been made--the only recent (last 10 yrs) domestic failures of which I am aware have been due to lax enforcement of those standards. That is engineering fact.

The issue, then, is to beat the drum, blow the horns, and make enough hoopla to draw attention to it for the benefit of the journalists who are largely clueless with regards to items of math, science, engineering, statistics, etc. That means increasing its profile through people (like me, for example) promoting it in areas not yet used to thinking along these lines. That is communication/marketing.

The level of ignorance around CNG transport here in the Carolinas is truly astounding! Unless the person has lived out west, overseas, or has worked in a fleet setting, they have no idea the option even exists. Have any of y'all offered car time for test drives to the members of your church on a Sunday afternoon? I fully intend to do just that, and work my way across town through my friends and family. It's gonna cost me some mileage and CNG, but somebody's gotta do it.

Make as much NG as possible from pond scum, land fill pressings, etc. etc, and call it Bio-Methane--if we can sell it back into the pipeline "grid" like alternative electrics so much the better. That action would give NG an eco-friendly polish for the dirt-worshipping, tree-hugging, birk-wearing sorts who sanctimoniously bought an Insight or a Prius 8-10 years ago. (I meet 2 of the 3 adjectives in the preceding stereotype). Remember, Barbara Boxer is now the chair of the US Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works. If we can hook into her constituency and the guys who are trying to make a living with their hands and a truckload of tools, we could blow both E85 and EPA restrictions out of the water in short order.
That is the "intellectual side."

On the level of Joe Sixpack's beerbelly, one insurance dodge in America is to let a gas pipe leak into an enclosed space while one leaves home, leaving the house to blow apart when a loose or loosened wire passes current through that enclosed space. A blast of that strength precludes much evidence collection, so if ya leave the dog in the house and the 2nd car in the garage when you leave...(I know John, this is discussing illegal activity, but I only mention it to make a point)

On the same level, NG is seen as a fossil fuel in the same light as petroleum--bad for the environment when drilling, controlled by a bunch of scrofulous rednecked cowboys, part of Big Business out to screw little guys like you and me, etc etc.

Couple the insurance scam with the perception of NG as a new game with the same old swindlers. Add the memory of things like the K&W Cafeteria gas explosion (Winston-Salem, NC--some time in the 1980s, IIRC). Suddenly, the political inertia against getting the rest of the country to buy in is huge.

The father of one of my wife's colleagues is a retired oil merchandiser (home fuels, fleet fuels, and a couple of gas stations before he sold out) and his take is that most Americans consider gasoline to be a social entitlement. The war in Iraq and current gasoline prices may have eroded that perception somewhat, but we must chip away some more on our own in order to succeed.

For the record, I own no stock in any natural gas or NGV concerns. I'm just trying to pass something on to my children's generation that our parents couldn't, and possibly open up a station of my own some day.

[TheBundo]

Re: Can somebody clue me in

This reply might sound like a college professor. Please bear with me.

mOrE LiKe 5Th gRaDe sOcIaL sTuDiEs

[Andy-Paul]

Re: Can somebody clue me in (NGVs get little press attention)

I've been known to engage in that, too. Ultimately, however, it comes down to who will pimp for it. If it ain't us, who will?

[CNG4RD]

Re: Can somebody clue me in (NGVs get little press attention)

I hear varying comments on CNG emissions and its relation to gasoline engines.

When I read about the Honda GX like here:

http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-gx/reviews.aspx

it seems that CNG is at least capable of near zero emissions. That sounds like a lot more than a 30% improvement over gasoline to me.

I realize that all CNG vehicles are not built alike but it seems the technology is easily capable (Honda has been selling theirs for years now for cheap) of solving greenhouse gas problems, if near-zero really means near zero.

[ch4]

Re: Can somebody clue me in

... but a combination of ignorance and gut mistrust at the levels of public commentary and Joe Sixpack, respectively. When we cry conspiracy, it makes us look like a bunch of wild-eyed paranoiacs...

I'm just trying to pass something on to my children's generation that our parents couldn't, and possibly open up a station of my own some day.

As a member of the Joe-SixPac club I would like to agree with your comments.
My 6 is Pilsner Urquell and local micro-brews (in a growler.)

I hope everyone is looking towards the future.

Wake Up folks. The reason CNG is on a downword spiral is one term:


------------------------------------------ E-85 ------------------------------------------------------------

UT just bought 600 E--85 cars to replace the CNG fleet.
Net Cost to taxpayers: $12,000,000.00

And I've never seen an E-85 pump in UT.
I've been told that there is one (I pray that there must be more than one.)

So, most of the fleet will use gasoline, which in a flex-fuel car is about 8-12% LESS
efficient for pollution, CO2, and MPG for the same dedicated gasoline engine.

[RaulLasVegas]

Re: Can somebody clue me in (NGVs get little press attention)

When I first started feeling the pinch last fall of the price of gasoline, I researched, and researched some more before I found the GX. It took me 3 months to decide it was the right thing. How many people would spend that much time on research? Not many, and I am a geek. I admit it.

So, as a human that shares the planet with all of the other humans around me, it is my responsibility to inform people who dont enjoy researching something to death like I do, to inform them that they have options.

I have talked with, and received promotional material from the local gas company, who runs the pumps, the local honda dealer, to insure they could actually buy the car, and the local environmental groups to let them know I care, and I and the car is available.

I have done 3 local events this year, which is just me; a guy with his car, talking to people, and letting them know they have options. Raising awareness of my fellow humans.

We have figured this out. We know that its the right thing to do now. Whats holding NGV's back is awareness. There are close to 2000 of us. Lets make the country aware.

We are all in this together.

[jetboatjohnny]

Re: Can somebody clue me in (NGVs get little press attention)

I was looking for an economic solution for my 600+ miles/week commute, looked into VW diesels, and making my own bio-diesel. My 20 mpg van was killing me, I spent 370$ for fuel the last month I drove it (July 2006).
I read an article in a trade publication about the GX, decided I was not going to spend that much on a new car, so I got on E-Bay and found a used one the same day for about 2,000 less than KBBs price for a gasoline powered Civic.
I'd like the word to get out on NGVs, we are doing that here, but I dont worry too much because I know the RTA will never go back to using diesel fuel, so my local fuel supply should always be there. It's only occasionally crowded with buses, so I can always fill with the 3,000psi nozzle. I rarely ever see a car or van there, but I know there are at least 3 other people in my area (Hemet/San Jacinto) that drive NGVs, two I have met at the pump. One guy has a Dodge van and 2 Crown vics, other has a 98 GX.
Once I sell my RV parked next to my garage, I will invest in a fuelmaker.

[Dmitry]

Re: Can somebody clue me in (NGVs get little press attention)

I got PG&E fuel card training today, and the instructor told me the current CNG technology has been around for 18 years, and the only reason it has not caught up is because people are spoiled. And I think he is right. So bring it on ... what's next $5 gas, $6 gas ... and CNG will flourish. And the auto makers will get back to their CNG programs, and filling stations will proliferate, bring it on. But do not spend my taxpayer money on dead end solutions out there.

[T Bou Perkins]

Re: Can somebody clue me in

I am experiencing the same thing. I am in Southeast Louisiana where natural gas has been produced for years in great volume and stored in massive salt domes. It seems like none of the common public sees the potential YET. Another thing, if someone wanted to talk about a massive strategic reserve of energy, the stockpile of natural gas that exists if staggering, but its only viable if our vehicles used it. The major players in the fuel industry seem to know already that the transition will happen, but it must be on THEIR terms and THEIR manipulated timing of it. Exxon Mobile has purchased XTO, the little known but largest wildcatter of natural gas in America, for $41,000,000,000.00. Hmm!