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  • NEWB - got questions

    Okay gents, i'm not really new to the debate topics of renewable energy
    as I've been an avid follower of alternative options (except Ethanol).
    I'm a Chicago burbs resident, so I've already checked the local listings
    on the energy site for local stations, not very many.....so here's my question.

    I noticed people use Pressure ratings and GGE measurements with CNG.

    What I'm trying to figure out here is how I can do the math to convert say
    my gas bill charges into these GGE's or whatever I can do in essence to
    determine my OVERALL costs, then break it down by my annual mileage to
    get an educated guess on what my MPG would be overall and break even point.

    This is what I was told so far, please correct and add in as needed.
    My Gas bill comes rated in "Therms" so I am trying to do the math conversion
    here to find out what is a GGE in relation to this - This is what I was told by
    a buddy who works in energy but there's obviously parts missing.....

    124 scf = 1 gallon of gasoline.

    124 scf= 1.24 therm

    1 therm = (about) $1.30 to $1.40 for June delivery in Chicago.

    1.24 * 1.35 (avg) = $1.67

    Fuel efficiency loss, figure about 3 MPG less on CNG. I have seen studies that showed anywhere from 12 to 35 percent less fuel mileage with CNG depending on the vehicle.
    I read that 1 GGE is the gasoline gallon equivalent, so how do you get a GGE
    rating plus PSI rating .....I guess that's where I'm getting lost at.
    This didn't really help much....maybe I'm just brainfarting it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GGE

    So the pressure compresses the gas more but it's still 1 GGE ....right ???
    Meaning higher PSI equals less cubic feet per GGE but still the same energy as 1 gallon of gas.
    For instance, can someone use a 2008 Honda GX max GGE and what PSI rating, and explain it to me ??
    Last edited by Aceshigh; 05-20-2008, 05:52 AM.

  • #2
    Re: NEWB - got questions

    Also , what is the maximum PSI rating a home PHILL can put in???

    I read they have to be rebuilt after 6,000 hours....but I don't understand
    how they grade it with an "hour" rating for rebuilds.....I would think a GGE
    rating would make more sense, so I'm lost on that too.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: NEWB - got questions

      The loss in efficiency comes mostly from running CNG in gasoline engines (e.g. Bi-fuel cars that can use both fuels). There is much less loss when running CNG in a CNG-specific engine where higher compression takes advantage of the higher 'Octane' rating of CNG.

      Phill is supposed to last 6000 hours, but it often doesn't and is a lot slower than the rated .4 gge/hr. You'd be lucky to get 2000 GGE out of a Phill before repair or rebuild. The FM series is much more serviceable and reliable, a lot faster (1 gge/hr), and a lot cheaper to repair or rebuild. I figure about $.50/gge for electricity and compressor maintenance. In So. Cal. you can get a lower rate for your whole gas bill with a CNG compressor installation.
      02 GX
      01 GX
      03 Crown Vic
      06 GX
      Home Fueler

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: NEWB - got questions

        Originally posted by Aceshigh View Post
        My Gas bill comes rated in "Therms" so I am trying to do the math conversion
        here to find out what is a GGE in relation to this - This is what I was told by
        a buddy who works in energy but there's obviously parts missing.....
        Probably goes without saying, but you will want to find out how your local gas utility is going to deal with the "Vehicle Refueling Appliance." In the case of Southwest Gas in Chandler Arizona, and Mesa City Gas in Mesa Arizona, you are required to get a separate meter installed; there may be an additional meter charge and a different rate charged for your VRA. That said, other than OK and UT, I believe home refueling with an FMQ-2-36 is the low cost CNG option (over the long term)
        2008 GX (extended range, trunkless version)
        Polished Metal Metallic 2012 Civic Natural Gas
        Fuelmaker FMQ-2-36 (since 2001)
        Previously owned: 2000 GX (11 years), 1995 Bi-fuel Sonoma, 2000 Bifuel Tahoe, 2000 Bi-fuel F150

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: NEWB - got questions

          Originally posted by Aceshigh View Post
          Okay gents, i'm not really new to the debate topics of renewable
          I noticed people use Pressure ratings and GGE measurements with CNG.

          What I'm trying to figure out here is how I can do the math to convert say
          my gas bill charges into these GGE's or whatever ... I can do in essence to



          I read that 1 GGE is the gasoline gallon equivalent, so how do you get a GGE
          rating plus PSI rating .....I guess that's where I'm getting lost at.
          This didn't really help much....maybe I'm just brainfarting it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GGE

          So the pressure compresses the gas more but it's still 1 GGE ....right ???
          Meaning higher PSI equals less cubic feet per GGE but still the same energy as 1 gallon of gas.
          For instance, can someone use a 2008 Honda GX max GGE and what PSI rating, and explain it to me ??
          GGEs and therms are units of energy, so you don't need to use pressure as a variable.
          Here's one more from PG&E: 1.276 therms = 1 GGE

          Check out Todd's thread with my URLs
          http://cngchat.com/forum/showthread....ighlight=therm
          CH

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: NEWB - got questions

            Thanks so far guys, I think I'm grabbing all this.

            I will have to contact Nicor Gas to find out about the 2nd meter deal.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: NEWB - got questions

              I am talking with a guy that makes acoustic refrigerators. Right now they have units that can freeze 2 GGE of methane per day and last 10 years. ( remember if you put liquid methane in a cosed container and let it warm the pressure will raise very fast.) They have units that will do larger amounts ( 20 gals or more ) but the cost is higher. Right now the price is pretty steep like 20 k and 64 k for the larger ones. The trick is if you can get a couple hundred people together to each buy one. the price would drop 1/2. Thousands the costs could drop even more.


              anyone interested in starting some kind of CO-OP?

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: NEWB - got questions

                Originally posted by CNGfamily View Post
                Probably goes without saying, but you will want to find out how your local gas utility is going to deal with the "Vehicle Refueling Appliance." In the case of Southwest Gas in Chandler Arizona, and Mesa City Gas in Mesa Arizona, you are required to get a separate meter installed; there may be an additional meter charge and a different rate charged for your VRA. That said, other than OK and UT, I believe home refueling with an FMQ-2-36 is the low cost CNG option (over the long term)
                cngaz needs to pipe in on this, in Arizona what is the meter fee, is there compression rate for at home fueling. what is the break even point from this rate and the standard residential rate? I will try to gather thus for Long Beach.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: NEWB - got questions

                  I have a spreadsheet for calculating costs / payback periods here - http://www.cnginfoguide.com/node/37

                  And here is a Phill vs. FMQ comparison - http://www.cnginfoguide.com/node/26
                  Last edited by Devo; 08-04-2008, 12:07 AM.
                  Devin

                  http://www.cnginfoguide.com

                  http://feedproxy.google.com/CngInformationGuide
                  http://feedproxy.google.com/CngForSale

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    More links

                    The OP's calculations look right. My Utah therm rate is approx. half, putting my home refueling around 85 cents.
                    http://www.cngchat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1905

                    Here is why I passed on Phill vs. the FM series:
                    http://www.cngchat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23

                    The economics of CNG have nothing to do with the PSI rating of the fill you obtain after refueling. Higher PSI just means you jammed more gasoline gallon equivalent of fuel in the tank (providing a longer range before having to refuel again).

                    Comment

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