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  • Will electric cars obsolete CNG?

    Sorry to burst everybody's bubble, but when electric cars come out in a couple of years CNG will be obsolete. So don't worry about Clean Energy. Let them do what they want with businesses, we can just buy electric cars.

  • #2
    Re: Keep public cng pump at Albuquerque!! NOT to Clean Energy!

    Originally posted by ajgiorgi View Post
    Sorry to burst everybody's bubble, but when electric cars come out in a couple of years CNG will be obsolete. So don't worry about Clean Energy. Let them do what they want with businesses, we can just buy electric cars.
    I don't really want to start an argument on this issue but there are several factors which work against a thriving EV market.
    • Been There; Done That – The Big 3, plus most of the Japanese and European automakers have given this technology its shot. The technology works just fine – the automakers couldn’t make it work with their marketing and business models.
    • Range – Need I say more…
    • Battery Technology – The battery developers are working overtime to eliminate memory and improve mileage but continue to come up short (range that is ). The latest battery technology is being seen in the hybrid (I’ll was my mouth out later ) market, so this isn’t too much of a mystery.
    • Reliability – I’ve yet to see an EV with 100,000 miles on the odometer.
    • Infrastructure – The EV industry has burned a lot of bridges. Many businesses (eg: Wal-Mart) invested mucho dinero supporting this technology; most of those assets have been decommissioned and abandoned in place.
    • Refueling – Induction charging (the safest option) takes HOURS to provide a “full tank”. There are fast charge options, but they’re conductor set ups (metal to metal contact) that make he Risk Managers shudder while the PI Attorneys are beside themselves with glee.
    One last thought: electric rate structures in most areas severely limit when you can recharge your EV. Recharging during the day dramatically increases your cost of operation.
    Last edited by BiggJohn; 04-26-2008, 03:52 AM. Reason: Grammer
    BiggJohn
    -------------------
    2000 CNG Camry
    VRA Wannabe

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    • #3
      Re: Keep public cng pump at Albuquerque!! NOT to Clean Energy!

      Originally posted by ajgiorgi View Post
      Sorry to burst everybody's bubble, but when electric cars come out in a couple of years CNG will be obsolete. So don't worry about Clean Energy. Let them do what they want with businesses, we can just buy electric cars.
      Careful there, cowboy! Talk like that could get you banished from cngland!

      I don't think we have to worry about cng becoming obsolete. It's a very solid part of the puzzle. There will be no "one" magic bullet here. Besides, if you think Utah is switching off cng any time soon... I want some of what you're on.
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      • #4
        Re: Will electric cars obsolete CNG?

        Hydrogen if anything will obsolete CNG, but somehow we are always 10 years away from that. CNG is here already and very viable. Ask me, I've been making a living from it the past 4 years. and every year is better than the previous year. CNG technology is very similiar to Hydrogen, For the most part components are the same. But to get the same range on Hydrogen you have to hold more fuel than with CNG, not a scientist or anything but I think it's because the molocules are bigger.

        If anything once Hydrogen gets here if ever will obsolete the electric car. I say run your NEV around the block but if you need something to comute in, it's CNG baby!
        sigpichttp://WWW.CNGMOTORS.COM
        SAVE TIME. SAVE MONEY. SAVE THE ENVIRONMENT.

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        • #5
          Re: Will electric cars obsolete CNG?

          I disagree... Hydrogen wont be the death knell as it has the same problems with storage that cng has. If anything, the next quantum leap will involve fuel cell technology, and it is getting very close to production these days.

          Fuel cells can use any hydrocarbon source to generate electricity chemically- fwiw, natgas works very well in that scenario.

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          • #6
            Re: Will electric cars obsolete CNG?

            Originally posted by ajgiorgi View Post
            Sorry to burst everybody's bubble, but when electric cars come out in a couple of years CNG will be obsolete. So don't worry about Clean Energy. Let them do what they want with businesses, we can just buy electric cars.
            Yeah, I can really see all the rent controlled apartment owners and NIMBY HOA's jump on this and retrofit all their parking spaces.

            But I guess it won't matter because cities will surely provide charging at every on-street parking location.

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            • #7
              Re: Will electric cars obsolete CNG?

              Electricity doesn't seem viable to me. You can't recharge just anywhere and as was said earlier they take to long to charge for the amount of range. Long distance trips are out with electricity at this point.

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              • #8
                Re: Will electric cars obsolete CNG?

                Somehow the hybrids I've actually sat/driven in can't seem to run on batteries for more than a couple of minutes before the engine kicks in. Something's wrong here.

                Electric is fine if you are in City of LA where power is cheap. In SCE territory or most others it would be pretty expensive.

                Hydrogen is a fine technology, but the major source of Hydrogen these days is breaking up CH4 (Natural Gas) molecules. Why not just use 'the real thing' directly? Until there is a practical source of Hydrogen it won't be the next solution. I understand that Hydrogen 'at the pump' these days is over $7/GGE (or would be if they weren't giving it away free).

                Hydrogen is the smallest possible molecule (H2) and THAT causes big problems in terms of leaks.

                CH4 (Natural Gas, Methane) is produced at every landfill and most wastewater plants. If we collected and used it in vehicles rather than burning it onsite for electricity, CNG cars would be considered a 'sustainable' and 'renewable' source of transportation. But, for now, it's cheaper and easier to use the gas that's coming out of the ground.
                Last edited by freedml; 04-27-2008, 10:36 AM.
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                • #9
                  Re: Will electric cars obsolete CNG?

                  When I was working in the CNG business there was a study of the Chrysler OEM CNG dedicated minivan and it used less natural gas as a CNG vehicle than it would have used to generate the electricity for a similar EV minivan. The emissions to the environment were lower as a total.

                  Ecomonmically feasible EV's are a long way off. It would be great if they were an option but they just do not make sense in the real world in the near future.

                  EV's are just remote emission vehicles (REV) and not truly zero emission vehicles. Do we care about the total emissions or just what comes out of the tailpipe? Plus the CNG vehicle is not carrying around hundreds of pounds of heavy metals in batteries. Or lithium, which also does great things for your health.

                  You can consider nuclear, hydroelectric, solar and wind generated electricity but the fact is these are not the major sources of electricity in the US. In California most of the electricity is made with natural gas due to the emissions. In Utah I believe there coal is still the major fuel source.

                  Somehow these people believe electricity arrives at the outlet in their wall with no environmental consequences.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Will electric cars obsolete CNG?

                    "Somehow these people believe electricity arrives at the outlet in their wall with no environmental consequences."

                    Well said.
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                    • #11
                      Re: Will electric cars obsolete CNG?

                      An insert in a recent bill revealed that LADWP gets about 1/2 its power from a coal-fired plant out of state. I guess we're a 'remote emissions city'!
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                      • #12
                        Re: Will electric cars obsolete CNG?

                        Wow, I got everybody riled up. I was just speaking on the point of Clean Energy and their "monopoly" or "business rights" or however you view Clean Energy. Let them do what they want and in the mean time we get more stations because there the only company promoting CNG.

                        Theirs going to be other alternatives besides natural gas, but electricity is already at your residence and seems much more practical. Check out the articles on the New York auto show. I remember seeing a Mitsubishi electric car and the Nissan Denki Cube electric. (I was a Nissan/Datsun guy before Honda.) Yes, the have limited range, but I want a commuter thats cheap to run and maintain. Those are my needs, but they may not be yours. So everybody is different.

                        Sorry to anger some of you,
                        Anthony
                        Last edited by ajgiorgi; 04-27-2008, 02:09 PM.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Will electric cars obsolete CNG?

                          Originally posted by freedml View Post
                          An insert in a recent bill revealed that LADWP gets about 1/2 its power from a coal-fired plant out of state. I guess we're a 'remote emissions city'!

                          Coal is cheap and reliable... It just makes Utah's air kinda gray.

                          LADWP's largest coal plant is in Ogden, Utah. IPP provides several utilities in the South West with low cost power (without polluting the air of the their communities).
                          BiggJohn
                          -------------------
                          2000 CNG Camry
                          VRA Wannabe

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                          • #14
                            Re: Will electric cars obsolete CNG?

                            Originally posted by ajgiorgi View Post
                            Sorry to anger some of you,
                            Anthony
                            Not mad Tony... just passionate!
                            BiggJohn
                            -------------------
                            2000 CNG Camry
                            VRA Wannabe

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                            • #15
                              Re: Will electric cars obsolete CNG?

                              I believe there are opportunities for Electric cars in the market today, just like CNG cars.

                              For example, at night while we are all sleeping, there is a lot of unused electricity which is not being used. What I see in the future is outlets which are controlled to turn on when there is enough electricity available on the grid, and at cheaper rates.

                              Flat Rate pricing for electricity has to go as well.

                              Here is CALISOs usage:

                              http://www.caiso.com/outlook/SystemStatus.html

                              Just think of all the 'cheap' electricity for electric cars which could become available.

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