Kits for 96 and before?

[Big Gus]

New here, you guys are very informative.
Here's the deal. I have a mechanical back ground, (like in the garage as a hobby), business background and recently sold a business that was doing just OK.
Now, I have this bright idea of buying good (well kept) gas hog SUV's and trucks and converting them to CNG and reselling. After my research so far, anything newer than 96 will have to be certified, but 96 and before not.
Are there kits out there that are in this catagory that are reasonbly priced? It seems that I do not have to follow all this EPA cert issues, and therefore looking for kits that are also not certified, BUT, dependable and SAFE.

Am I nuts? should I just go buy a restaurant or something and ditch this idea??

[nksNP2008]

Re: Kits for 96 and before?

Hello. I'm new to this place. I have a 1995 passenger vehicle and would like to know the same. Anyone got any docs regarding cng retrofit of 1995 or older vehicles? Thanks.

[Andy-Paul]

Re: Kits for 96 and before?

Is it legal, or isn't it? At this point, I don't think anyone knows: either out here or in the EPA.

I can tell you that, at one time, EPA did approve kits. Since the advent of the OBDII "platform approval" rules and "regulatory parity" between CNG refitters (considered to be small volume manufacturers) and OEM companies such as GM and Ford, it's a whole different ballgame.

The lack of clarity in the regulations with regard to pre-OBDII platforms and the obvious expense of being caught on the wrong side of rules that aren't exactly clear to begin with has put companies that make the conversion parts *very* selective about whom they sell to. If the Inhofe Bill's final provision makes it through Congress unscathed, the rules will become

SEC. 6. NATURAL GAS CONVERSION EMISSION CERTIFICATIONS.
Part C of title II of the Clean Air Act (42 U.S.C. 7581 et seq.) (as amended by section 5) is amended by adding at the end the following:
`SEC. 252. NATURAL GAS CONVERSION EMISSION CERTIFICATIONS.
`(a) In General- The Administrator shall waive requirements for recertification of kits for the conversion of vehicles into vehicles that are powered by natural gas in any case in which, as determined by the Administrator--
`(1) the kit has been previously certified for the model of vehicle to be converted; and
`(2) neither the kit nor the design and specifications of the model of vehicle to be converted have substantially changed.
`(b) Older Vehicles- The Administrator shall waive emission certification system requirements for a vehicle that is over 10 years old or has over 120,000 miles that is powered by natural gas.'

Right now, about all we can do is hunker down, work in our respective garages on whatever we can afford, pray regularly, and let our respective congressional delegates know just how much this bill--and this part of the bill in particular--means to us.

Others here may disagree with my assessment, and I have been trying since April to get someone at EPA to step up to the plate and clarify the rules for pre-OBDII LDVs, but it's starting to feel like I'm hollering down a well.

andy-paul

[contour2000]

Re: Kits for 96 and before?

Does anyone know the name/number of the proper contact in Sacramento, CA, probably, CARB, to ask questions about this 10yr/120,000 mile emissions waiver?

SEC. 6. NATURAL GAS CONVERSION EMISSION CERTIFICATIONS.
Part C of title II of the Clean Air Act (42 U.S.C. 7581 et seq.) (as amended by section 5) is amended by adding at the end the following:
`SEC. 252. NATURAL GAS CONVERSION EMISSION CERTIFICATIONS.(b) Older Vehicles- The Administrator shall waive emission certification system requirements for a vehicle that is over 10 years old or has over 120,000 miles that is powered by natural gas.'

[Franz]

Re: Kits for 96 and before?

The EPA and CARB have a slightly different approach to certifications. A couple of years ago the EPA rescinded all previously issued certifications for converted vehicles. The area of which vehicles now need certification is a bit clouded, but simply put, any vehicle under two years old need (or should be) certified. Vehicles from two to 7 years old should be compliant with OBD-II (approx 2004 and newer), and any vehicle older than that should be converted with the "best possible practice". The odd part is that the law is rarely enforced but when they do, its a real production. Vehicles manufactured prior to 1996 do not have OBD-II and there are no current technology equipment offerings, leaving the only choice the old school mechanical carburetors and regulators.

As someone who has been in this business longer than many of the forum members have been alive, I put the blame of stiff EPA regulations square on the shoulders of the old school conversions. Many, and I really mean "many" of these conversions were performed with the mentality of getting it outside the door before it died, tolerating check engine lights, sloppy installations, and getting customers to accept whatever was delivered as "thats just the way it is, you want cheap fuel you have to put up with these idiosyncrasies".

I for one am glad for stiff conversion regulations. We can thank them for better quality vehicle conversions today (and NOT some of the ones shown on Youtube or eBay). The consumer has also become more savvy about a user transparent conversion and wont tolerate junk, or so I thought. Some still succumb to the pitch line I recently heard: "Why pay $8,000 for a conversion when I can convert your car for $2500!" I overheard a few mutterings about "buying in quantity, not having to pay royalties, exclusive franchise rights, cutting out the middleman", and so on. It was sickening.

[Lakewood90712]

Re: Kits for 96 and before?

Sorry, the C.A.R.B. orchestra will not play that tune. You could try a letter to Mary Nickols, Director of the Air Resources Board.

[cowboy]

Re: Kits for 96 and before?

franz I agree with you as far as the sloppy installs but a lot of the old style carb and regulators worked well and still do on the older cars and trucks. I just bought a f700 ford today and drove it home 429 ci impco 425 runs great pulled well. I have grand plans to put A impco hp 3600 and some tanks on it and run cng or lpg that it runs now. so please dont kick the old technology to the curb yet as it still works well