Mercedes B 170 NGT BlueEFFICIENCY

[ZafiraCNGGermany]

The new Mercedes B 170 NGT BlueEFFICIENCY will be available in summer 2008(Germany).

http://media.daimler.com/dcmedia/0-9...0%7C%20XAID%3D

Pictures:
http://media.daimler.com/dcmedia/0-9...0%7C%20XAID%3D

[Stu Man]

Re: Mercedes B 170 NGT BlueEFFICIENCY

Hi ZafiraCNGGermany :

Wow that Mercedes-Benz B Class NGT looks like it is going to be quite the vehicle.

It is a real smart business decision on daimler/Chrysler's part to manufacture such a quality Bi-Fuel vehicle.

Hopefully, we'll be able to purchase this car over here in North America, and especially Canada. Then the Honda GX will have some competition.

It looks like Germany sells Natural Gas by the Kilogram, like we do here in Canada. I am just curious to know what the average pump price per Kilogram is in Germany ?

Here in Vancouver Canada the average Pump price per Kilogram is about 101.5 per Kg.

Stu Man

the math:
(101.5 * 0.67)/100 = .68 per Litre

.68 * 4.54609 = $3.09 per Imperial Gallan
.68 * 3.79541 = $2.58 per U.S.A. Gallon

[ZafiraCNGGermany]

Re: Mercedes B 170 NGT BlueEFFICIENCY

Hi Stu Man,
this is correct. The average price for Natural Gas is 0.892 Euro/kg or 140,0 per kg. That means:
.94 per Litre
$4.27 per Imperial Gallan
$3.35 per U.S.A. Gallon

The some prices of the german CNG stations http://www.cngprices.com are up to date. It takes a while to update all of the 779 CNG-Stations.

The CNG stations in Switzerland are up to date too, so far as I got the data.
If you want to convert the currency http://www.convertworld.com/en/currency/.

Jürgen

[Stu Man]

Re: Mercedes B 170 NGT BlueEFFICIENCY

Thanks Jürgen:

Your answer is great. Thanks for converting the prices.

But, WOW is that expensive

Hopefully we'll be communicating to each other again soon.

Stu Man

[cngacrossusa]

Re: Mercedes B 170 NGT BlueEFFICIENCY

Hello ZafiraCNGGermany,

I take it you drive a GM/Opel ZarifaCNG van . . . correct?? That vehicle I believe would be terrific taxi here in USA if we could get it. Also, it would be terrific "soccer mom" vehicle since tanks are engineered to fit underneath vehicle in frame, thus no lost storage due to cng tanks. Are they sold as both left-hand drive and right-hand drive??

What can you tell us about it's fuel capacity when filling from public cng pumps . . . in gge (US gallon of gas equivalent) as well as driving range . . in US miles (sorry, we're not even close to being ready for Km yet!!) . . please specify whether in-town driving or highway. Can you really drive the entire country of Germany just on dedicated cng and find public cng pumps? What all companies run the public cng pumps . . is there price competition? Ever driven through multiple countries on just cng??

Are there home compressors to fill cng at home?? GasFill from England sold there?? How about Netherlands product called Gas At Home?? Fuelmaker cng compressor from Canada??

Overall, how do you like driving cng vehicle in Germany? How many miles do you drive daily, or weekly? Also what pressure do you get at public cng refueling sites?? Full-tank at 3,600 psi (248 bar) on ZafiraCng?? Are there lots of 3,000 psi (200 bar) cng vehicles in Germany or is 3,600 psi the standard?? What is your percentage savings using cng vs petrol? Do you own other cng vehicles . . what are they?

Sorry about so many questions, but Germany is ideal model of what should happen with cng in USA. Wow over 700 public cng pumps in small geographical area of Germany . . . . that's likely as many as entire USA!!

Thanks, . . . cngacrossusa

[operatore]

Re: Mercedes B 170 NGT BlueEFFICIENCY

Hi! I've also a Opel/GM Zafira CNG/EcoM from Italy. Let me know if you need some other informations.

Greetings
Andrea

[ZafiraCNGGermany]

Re: Mercedes B 170 NGT BlueEFFICIENCY

Hello Stu Man,
it is not so expensive, when you know that the price for diesel fuel is 1.33Euro/Litre or 209.0$/Litre and the gasoline price is 1.38Euro/Litre or 217.0$/Litre today.
At the moment the Euro is very strong, so it seems to be quite expensive.

Greetings
Jürgen

[ZafiraCNGGermany]

Re: Mercedes B 170 NGT BlueEFFICIENCY

Hello cngacrossusa,

that is right. I drive a OPEL Zafira A CNG, which was manufactured in 2002.
So far as I know only the left-hand drive Zafira CNG is sold in Germany, Austria, Czech Republic, Switzerland, Sweden and Italy.

I think it is possible to drive through germany only with natural gas, but this has to be planned and supported by GPS.
I have never driven through multiple countries just on cng, but I think could be possible through Austria, Switzerland and Italy.

Shell, Esso(ExxonMobil), Aral and so on sell CNG. The prices for natural gas are nearly the same, there is not to much competition among all the local gas distributors.
There some cng-driver, who fill cng at home over night . Most people like the fast filling at a gas station. The standard in Germany is 3600 psi(248 bar) and you get your car filled in about 10 minutes.

It is really great driving with CNG, because it’s more than 50% cheaper than gasoline and about 30% cheaper than diesel fuel. The Zafira CNG is only car, that I have.
I drive 45 miles daily and the car has to be filled once a week(after 4-5 days).

Vehicle Range:
350 km (217 miles) City
400 km (248 miles) Highway

I couldn’t find anything about gge (US gallon of gas equivalent) , but the energie of 1kg CNG means 1.6 litre Gasoline.

Greetings
Jürgen

[cngacrossusa]

Re: Mercedes B 170 NGT BlueEFFICIENCY

Hello Andrea in Italy & Jurgen in Germany,

What is cng fuel capacity (normal fast fill) in kg (ie then I'll convert to ltr by multiply by 1.6, then convert back to gallons . . ie gge here in USA)?? Do you normally get a full tank, or just 90% to 95%?? What is your normal mpg in city and highway??

What is typical cng price right now? Does price go up & down a lot or about the same? Can you purchase at any public cng pump with just a credit card? Do any require you to have specific cng fuel card??

Is GM/Opel Zafira cng a dedicated van (ie cng only)? Or bi-fuel (cng/gasoline)? Did older models also have all cng tanks underneath within the frame??

Anyone you know actually refueling cng at home with Fuelmaker, GasFill, etc? What is their estimated cost per kg??

What is approximate cost to convert normal gasoline vehicle to become bi-fuel (ie cng/gasoline) . . . I know in Italy there is company called KingGas?? Anyone you know done it? Work fine?

What would market/street price be for say 2003 Zafira with 45,000 miles on it?? Are there car dealers that just buy & sell cng vehicles??

Thanks in advance for your answers!! cngacrossusa

[operatore]

Re: Mercedes B 170 NGT BlueEFFICIENCY

Hi cngacrossusa,

my Zafira A was manufactured in 2004, the CNG capacity is 110 litres (19Kg), but I fill normally 16Kg (it depends on the pressure of gas-station), at 220 bar.

The price in Italy is in range from 0,750 to 0,850 Euro/Kg, it depends from the zone. In the north of Italy the average price is 0,820 Euro/Kg. The price not depends from oil price, like diesel or gasoline. For example, where I refuell the price is the same since 2 years (!)

In all new cng-stations you can purchase also with credit card, and are multi-fuel (gasoline, diesel, LPG, ...). The oldest are cng-only and tipically you can pay only cash. You don't need any specific fuel card (like in France, for example). Note that (in Italy only) all cng-stations are not self-service.

Zafira is not strictly cng-only, but has a 14-litres gasoline tank, with you can drive about 140 Km, enough in case of emergency.

Zafira A is the oldest model. Zafira B has exactly the same engine and schema of tanks.

In my country no one has a home refuelling system (like Phill), bacause on old law make it impossible (like self-service in cng-stations). We hope things will change soon.

In Italy there are many places where convert your car in bi-fuel (it's the oldest way to drive with cng). I don't know a company called "KinGas", but there are other main companies than make components for conversion, like LandiRenzo, BRC or E-gas. Zafira has a LandiRenzo cng-system.

The cost to convert a car depends from the type of system you choose: injection or not. The most efficient is injection and it can costs 2.000 to 2.500 Euros. The non-injection can cost 1.500 to 2.000

The value of a 2003 Zafira with 45.000 Miles I think can be 8.000 Euros. I don't know if there are cng-only dealers, but I don't think so.

Bye
Andrea

[cngacrossusa]

Re: Mercedes B 170 NGT BlueEFFICIENCY

Hello Andrea,

Thanks for all the info. Few more questions:

What is normal driving range (km ok but prefer miles) for the cng fillups you get of around 16 kg?? Also, are you totally out of cng when you get 16 kg at fastfill cng station?? What does fuel gauge show after cng fillup?? What is driving range of whole tank of cng comparing city versus highway driving??

Does conversion costs you mention include the installation and cost of cng tank(s) as well - - thus complete system?? If not, how much for those?? What is typical size of tank installed when converting a vehicle to cng?? Anyone you know converted a vehicle and how did it turn out??

What all cng vehicles are common in your area . . . most bi-fuel or are some dedicated cng - - please give examples as I see some Fiats in European commercials that seem to be cng?? What percent of vehicles do you think are cng, compared to normal petrol (gasoline/diesel) vehicles??

Thanks . . . cngacrossusa

[operatore]

Re: Mercedes B 170 NGT BlueEFFICIENCY

At the moment my driving range is 300 Km cng only. The car change automatically from CNG to gasoline, and I don't know if tank is empty or not. After fillup fuel gauge show full. Driving range in city is about 260 Km, only highway maybe 320. Note that in Italy there is only one cng-quality. In other European conuntries (e.g. Germany or Austria) there are 2 qualities: L or H.

The conversion cost include installation and tanks. The size of tank depends of how much space your van has, and how much km you want drive. This make difference from a good manufacturer and a bad one. I know many people that converted their vehicles, and all (more or less) are happy for the choice. At the moment after conversion you can save 60% of fuel cost.

On the market there aren't now vehicles cng-only. Some years ago there was a version of Fiat Multipla (a popular MPV) named "BluePower" without gasoline tank, only CNG with 216 litres-tanks and a drive range of 670 km (!).
The most popular OEM cng vehicles at the moment in Italy is Fiat Panda, a small city-car. The cng vehicles on the market are:

For more informations about cng-vehicles on the market (in Italy) you can visit this link:

http://www.metanoauto.com/modules.ph...file=index&c=7

The percent of cng-vehicles in Italy is about 1,5%

Bye
Andrea

[ZafiraCNGGermany]

Re: Mercedes B 170 NGT BlueEFFICIENCY

Hello cngacrossusa,

my cng fuel capacity is also 19kg(110litres), but I can switch manually from natural gas to gasoline. I can store depending on the pressure and temperature between 15kg and 20kg.
That means 29 US Gallons and the fuel consumption is 33.8 mi/kg[(MPG(US)]

The price in germany is between 0.613Euro/kg (L-Gas) and 1.05Euro/kg(H-Gas).
At the moment I pay 0.939Euro/kg (H-Gas).The price for natural gas increased during the past four years. You don’t need any specific tank card in Germany, usually you can pay with credit card or cash.

I don’t the exact costs for refueling at home, but you have to pay a lot for for current and tax.

If you want to convert a car in Germany you have to between 3000 and 4500 Euro.
I have never heard of KingGas, perhaps you meant Prins http://www.prins-lpg.com/en/index.html

I think the price of 8000 Euro for a 2003 Zafira with 45.000 Miles is realistic.

There are no special cng dealer, they buy and sell nearly all kinds of vehicles.

Greetings
Jürgen

[OhMyGas]

Re: Mercedes B 170 NGT BlueEFFICIENCY

One of the main reasons for Home Refueling not being so popular in Germany is because many homes are not conected to a natural gas utility line. If someone wants to install a HRA they have to first install a big tank to hold all the erdgas.

In regards to different cars available I found the following a very informative link, also for gas-consumption:
http://www.spritmonitor.de/de/uebers...h=1&fueltype=4

Sorry - it's only in German but one can figure out the main information I think.

[cngmike]

Re: Mercedes B 170 NGT BlueEFFICIENCY

220 bar = 3142 psi.
300 km = 186 mi.
8000 euros= $16,000