My HHO Golf Cart

[CNG MOTORS]

I can't play golf in a club cart, have to use my own. And a CNG Motors cart can't just be electric or gas, so heres my Hydrogen golf cart.

Generator up top by the battery and the bubbler down below by the fuel tank

[dovh49]

Re: My HHO Golf Cart

So are you doing one of those H2O to H2 things (I heard that isn't safe)? Does that really work or are you getting H2 from somewhere?

That's cool if you really have it working. You'll have to tell us the cost comparison for recharging the battery.

[RaulLasVegas]

Re: My HHO Golf Cart

does this really work, or is it a perpetual motion machine? It seems to me that there isn't any "extra" electricity from an alternator. The generator draws as much power as it needs. More drain on the generator, the harder it is to turn. If you have been to the science center and riden the stationary bike with the light bulbs connected, you know what I mean.

Ok, so lets just say there is "extra" electricity. You create HHO, and loose 80% efficiency. You burn the HHO in an engine that doesn't have the compression ratio to use it, and you loose another 65% efficiency. That runs the generator that produces the "extra" electricity?

Take a look at this project car. The page is full of good info.

http://www.clean-air.org/Hydrogen%20Cobra%20Story/Hydrogen%20Cobra.htm

With a 526 cubic inch engine, they produced 270HP. They had an 87 liter tank(water) in the trunk to run for 5 minutes.

Can it be true that you can get a gasonline car to get 80mpg on a quart of water every 3 months? Or is this making the mixture so lean, the engine is making 20hp, and you are risking your pistons?

[jetboatjohnny]

Re: Cobra

Thanks for posting that, very interesting story.
Did they break the record? They never followed up.
It says they re-published it in 2003, nothing I could find on the UCR CE-CERT site http://www.cert.ucr.edu/
"The October meet at the Bonneville Salt Flats was cancelled due to rain and therefore no record run was attempted. A record attempt is planned for the next meet in August of 2002"
I am going to look into this

[RaulLasVegas]

Re: My HHO Golf Cart

It sounds like the rolling chassis was on loan from Shelby America. I dont think they did. BMW came out with thier 188MPH hydogen car shorty after that.

A while ago there was a story about a Canadian company creating hydogen from natural gas using electrolosys. This started my brain thinking that we already have the hydogen infrastructure created if we start injecting hydogen into the natural gas lines that we have. The natural gas devices will burn cleaner, NOX is reduced, and if you need a device that requires hydogen only, you remove the other parts at the dispenser. Eventually, hydogen content in the line increases to some percentage. But the question remained, can you run a hot water heater on hydogen? Looking at the information on that page, it doesn't seem likely. I was also suprised at how much different hydogen is than natural gas in the graphs, but again, I dont know why.

How does this relate? Hydogen in an internal combustion engine isn't very efficient.

You are also using such a small amount of water. You dont get 5 gallons of hydogen from a cup of water. Conservation of mass dictates that your getting a very small amount.

Maybe I am missing something. Some interaction thing maybe? I am not chemist, but my common scense says that HHO is a perpetual motion machine.

[CraziFuzzy]

Re: My HHO Golf Cart

Maybe I am missing something. Some interaction thing maybe? I am not chemist, but my common scense says that HHO is a perpetual motion machine.

Or, more accurately, would have to be BETTER than a perpetual motion machine to provide any benefit. Thermodynamics > HHO.

[rtry9a]

Re: My HHO Golf Cart

You are also using such a small amount of water. You dont get 5 gallons of hydogen from a cup of water. Conservation of mass dictates that your getting a very small amount.

Maybe I am missing something. Some interaction thing maybe? I am not chemist, but my common scense says that HHO is a perpetual motion machine.

You are confusing gas and liquid storage. HHO is a gas, mostly H2 and O2 molecules mixed with a lot of empty space and other gas molecules (70% N2 and 20% O2) from the ambient air, between them. The molecules in liquids are much more tightly packed and mostly only H2O. A similiar space relationship exists between LNG and CNG storage.

If I remember correctly (it is confusing converting from metric weight to US volume), 1 mole of water molecules weighs 18grams and 1 mole of gas molecules are equal to approx 22 liters volume at STP. 18 grams of water is equal to 0.635 ounces and there are 128 oz in a gallon. Bottom line- there is a lot of gas volume from a gallon of liquid; liquids are a great efficient way to transport a gas. PS, dont confuse this conversion with gasoline- it is delivered as a vapor (small droplets), not as a gas to the engine.

[RaulLasVegas]

Re: My HHO Golf Cart

You are confusing gas and liquid storage. HHO is a gas, mostly H2 and O2 molecules mixed with a lot of empty space and other gas molecules (70% N2 and 20% O2) from the ambient air, between them. The molecules in liquids are much more tightly packed and mostly only H2O. A similiar space relationship exists between LNG and CNG storage.

If I remember correctly (it is confusing converting from metric weight to US volume), 1 mole of water molecules weighs 18grams and 1 mole of gas molecules are equal to approx 22 liters volume at STP. 18 grams of water is equal to 0.635 ounces and there are 128 oz in a gallon. Bottom line- there is a lot of gas volume from a gallon of liquid; liquids are a great efficient way to transport a gas. PS, dont confuse this conversion with gasoline- it is delivered as a vapor (small droplets), not as a gas to the engine.

I am not a chemist, and I am not confusing liquids, and gases. Let me put it a different way. If I buy a GGE of CNG, its 5.66 pounds of weight. We know a Civic goes about 40 miles on that. If you have a cup of water, it weights about 3/4 of an ounce. Quick math gets that Civic going .3 of a mile.

[rtry9a]

Re: My HHO Golf Cart

Your 1 GGE of natural gas is not at STP (Standard temperature and pressure), it is under tremendous pressure. You ARE confusing a gas with a liquid.

[RaulLasVegas]

Re: My HHO Golf Cart

Your 1 GGE of natural gas is not at STP (Standard temperature and pressure), it is under tremendous pressure. You ARE confusing a gas with a liquid.

Isnt 1 GGE of CNG = 5.66 pounds irregaurdless of pressure or tempurature?

[Kevin Fern]

Re: My HHO Golf Cart

A gas is a gas and a liquid is a liquid, in a perfect world, 39kw of energy is needed to make 1 kg of H2. Most electrolytic systems need around 60-70 kw to make 39kw of h2. It also takes 5 gallons of water to make 1 kg of hydrogen. How you can drive a few miles on any amount of "HHO" (unstable in theory regardless pressure) gas in beyond me!

[rtry9a]

Re: My HHO Golf Cart

I have no idea where your 5.56 lbs comes from- the GGE conversion is based on relative energy content, or BTU values, of the two fuels. The actual mass of a given BTU content of a combustible gas (in cng, depends on the number of methane molecules vs impurities) and the volume would depend mostly on temperature and pressure, which in turn, determines how tightly packed they would be.

It might help if you realize that if you compress gas molecules tight enough (specifically depends on the temp and pressure), they will become a liquid, and packed tighter yet, they become a solid. The point where they change state is dependent on the materials' internal forces- each compound is different. Heat makes the individual molecules move about, or vibrate, faster, and take up more space. There is no movement at absolute zero. Cool gases are much more dense.

[MrComment]

Re: My HHO Golf Cart

Isnt 1 GGE of CNG = 5.66 pounds irregaurdless of pressure or tempurature?

I believe the link your looking for is here.

http://www.tulsagastech.com/measure.html

1 GGE of NG = 5.66 lbs regardless of temperature and pressure.

[CNG MOTORS]

Re: My HHO Golf Cart

Sorry guys been busy and have not logged on in a few days. The H generated is not enough for the cart to run on on it's own. The generator is producing 1 LPM which substantially offsets the amount of gasoline I am using. Generator only produces H when the ignition is on. I have plans to put several generators in series (to keep amp draw down) and try to produce upwards of 15 LPM and make it run purely on H.

[CraziFuzzy]

Re: My HHO Golf Cart

Sorry guys been busy and have not logged on in a few days. The H generated is not enough for the cart to run on on it's own. The generator is producing 1 LPM which substantially offsets the amount of gasoline I am using. Generator only produces H when the ignition is on. I have plans to put several generators in series (to keep amp draw down) and try to produce upwards of 15 LPM and make it run purely on H.

Of course, what you REALLY mean is make it run purely on battery. It would be a lot cheaper, easier and more effecient to just put an electric motor in there.