CNG Hybrid Vehicle Possibility - CNG+Battery Packs or CNG+HHO

[badbone]

It actually took me three years to buy the Civic GX. My ex-coworker introduced me to the car for the first time back in 2006. He had purchased his used GX car for $6k from cngmotors. To be honest I taught he was a lunatic for buying such a car. Then as I looked into it further the idea of a CNG AFV started to become more appealing both financially and time saving by using the HOV lane. I actually paid $4.95 per gallon during the high gas prices, spending almost $100 to fill up my truck every 4 days or so, now I know it was I the lunatic for continuing to commute with a car that is not as cost effective and did not have the privilege to use the HOV lane. Knowing about this car before the gas prices when up and not acting on it cost me lots of money and time wasted. I made an attempt to purchase a used Honda GX but the prices had gone up. It was crazy trying to buy these vehicles during the high cost of gas. The same car my friend bought for $6k was selling for close to $9k and some of them even with higher mileage. Event the dealer did not want to negotiate below invoice. Those days were crazy.

I have been commuting 70 miles every day for the last 6 years so I finally sat down and calculated the price per mileage compared to the Honda GX. So it’s a no brainer, a week ago I made a decision to buy a brand new 2009 Honda GX, the gas saving practically pays for half the car payment. I did not want to wait for the summer before gas prices start rising up a bit again. Now that I have the car I have being doing lots of more research and I am becoming more educated on CNG vehicles. Thanks to this website and all your contributions.

So now to point described on the title. I have been doing research on HHO kits for a few years, but never actually build or purchased any of them. Some of the claims made online are simply too good to be true. If you look in youtube there many people claiming all sorts of things. I want to keep an open mind and in the future maybe give this a try to see for myself if this is actually genuine. I wanted to know if any of you has given a tough on adding or actually added a HHO kit to your CNG vehicle and seen positive results. I’m willing to listen on feedback to both positive and constructive criticism on this idea. Ideally if this works, we could add additional miles to the vehicle range, realistically I do not know if this is possible. In the worst case scenario I just waste money on a useless kit and tampered with the vehicle air intake flow system.

Findings so far that makes me think it may NOT be true:
- Dateline NBC reports HHO as a scam.
- If HHO effectiveness is true, it would be standard equipment on all new vehicles.
- People claim this violates the Laws of Thermodynamics. You cannot get something for nothing.
- There are no repair shops that installs [on my CNG :-)] these kits with a guarantee to work or your money back.

Findings so far that makes me think it may be possible:
- There is prototype that claims a Japanese Vehicle that runs only on water:
On youtube search for: JAPANESE WATER POWERED CAR
- There are many claims of different equipments that run on water:
On youtube search for: Hydrogen Torch - Hydrogen Car
- My personal believe that we as humans have not reached the end/limit on tapping onto alternative fuel sources optimization.
- My personal observation that this planet is 70% covered with water which basically is Hydrogen and Oxygen which are both very flammable gases. Making this planet a ticking time bomb, but we could use these fuel source if possible.

Any thoughts?

For the meantime I will continue to dream on a CNG Hybrid (CNG+Battery Packs or CNG+Hydrogen)
______________________________________________

2009 Honda Civic GX green tea metallic - Literally a green car.

[freedml]

Re: CNG Hybrid Vehicle Possibility - CNG+Battery Packs or CNG+HHO

So far, all dreams...

[siai47]

Re: CNG Hybrid Vehicle Possibility - CNG+Battery Packs or CNG+HHO

Forget about the HHO, browns gas or whatever else it goes by. A good gas for use in some metal cutting and decorative art projects---but not as a motor fuel. This stuff goes back to the dawn of internal combustion vehicles and if you desire you can research some of the very early patents. Basic problem is the energy in vs. energy out. There is no such thing as free power from the vehicle electrical system. The alternator must recharge the battery which is supplying power to the HHO device by using engine power to do it. If the HHO device used less energy to produce the gas then the energy contained in the gas, then you would be continually venting excess fuel as you drove---needing no additional fuel whatsoever. The hydogen/oxygen bond in water is very hard to break and requires a lot of energy to do it. You will never see this actually happening without expending excess energy--it's all smoke and mirrors. The other problem with HHO is that you now have Hydrogen gas and Oxygen which is an extremely flamable mixture combined in one hose. If a "backfire" in the hose starts, it will continue right back to the HHO device. The welding/cutting commercial HHO generators have a number of safety devices to prevent this which are missing on most do it yourself kits. There may be some emission benefits from HHO, but most can be handled by cheaper, safer means. If you find one that actually works, PM me and we will both become billionairs!

[CNG MOTORS]

Re: CNG Hybrid Vehicle Possibility - CNG+Battery Packs or CNG+HHO

A CNG Hybrid is possible. We were in the process of building a CNG Insight when business/demand went south. I have a HHO golf kart. HHO is not a scam depending on how you look at it. HHO only to power your vehicle we are not even close to that. HHO as an additive to offset a very small amount of your gasoline usage, yes. The generators do produce Hydrogen, you can stick a lighter to it and watch it explode as it bubbles up. The problem is no one has figured out how to build a generator that produces enough hydrogen to make a small impact on MPG. I am no engineer but my guess is 10-20 liters per minute (lpm) is what you would need, to see anythng worth while.

[freedml]

Re: CNG Hybrid Vehicle Possibility - CNG+Battery Packs or CNG+HHO

The key to thinking it works is that you can't measure it. It would be like trying to measure how much electricity your refrigerator uses to freeze ice cubes -- it's so small you can't measure it, but you know it takes some to remove that heat. Similarly, if you could produce enough HHO to influence your mileage, it would go DOWN because the electricity required to break the H2O bond is greater than the power you would get back from the HHO.


Added: It can work a little bit, but only to the extent that you don't use any more electricity than is being generated by the engine anyway and is going unused, a relatively small amount.

[CNG MOTORS]

Re: CNG Hybrid Vehicle Possibility - CNG+Battery Packs or CNG+HHO

Some day......we'll get there. We already have the solar powered flash light !

[freedml]

Re: CNG Hybrid Vehicle Possibility - CNG+Battery Packs or CNG+HHO

Only because the EPA has no jurisdiction over flashlights.

[siai47]

Re: CNG Hybrid Vehicle Possibility - CNG+Battery Packs or CNG+HHO

Good reading on Wiki on a timeline and value of HHO. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxyhydrogen Sorry it still doesn't work out .

[tomdotstar]

Re: CNG Hybrid Vehicle Possibility - CNG+Battery Packs or CNG+HHO

I am going to reply to this thread and will also post something in the lounge.

We may be missing the point on the importance of a cng hybrid. We don't really need the gas savings, WE NEED THE RANGE.

Here's my point. If we got the same improvement in the GX that Honda gets in the Civic hybrid, we could expect a 25% increase in range. That means I could drive my GX 250 miles instead of 200. I might even be able to drive from LA to Phoenix. What a concept.

Why is this such a big deal? I continue to believe that the biggest barrier to the adoption of CNG is the fueling infrastructure. In the past I have felt that "If we build it, they will come." But building a significant number of commercial stations at 500K ea. looks years away.

If we can extend our range and consumption by 25%, we've reduced the infrastructure need by that amount. Yes, the cost of these virtual stations would be borne by the buyers of the hybrids--but that cost will be offset by the fuel savings and convenience the buyers will experience.

Here's my mantra for Honda. Put hybrid technology into the GX and 25% of our infrastructure goes away...

[freedml]

Re: CNG Hybrid Vehicle Possibility - CNG+Battery Packs or CNG+HHO

Range is an issue, but not THE issue with alt fuel vehicles. People are even reluctant to buy Diesel cars which have the range but 'only' have dispensers at occasional gasoline stations. The big problem with CNG is that no one knows about it. When Honda put out a 'technology' ad it mentioned other technologies, but not CNG. If Honda isn't going to educate the public about CNG who will?

[Gerben]

Re: CNG Hybrid Vehicle Possibility - CNG+Battery Packs or CNG+HHO

Adding range is easy. You can just add an extra tank. Would you like your car a lot better if it had an extra tank? (Costing ~$1k extra if OEM, slightly reduced fuel economy and accelleration.)
A lot of NGVs in Europe are sold as bifuels. Range is not a real isue. The cars are too expensive, because NGVs are not sold in large enough numbers. If I buy a Fiat Panda on CNG I pay double the amount I'd pay for a similar gasoline version (12 vs 6k€). Hybrid technolgy will not help to make NGVs more affordable.