[merged thread] those w/ older honda civic GX's 98-01, gas tank replacement options?

[venomous99]

just curious w/ our cars being the 1st GX's needing tank replacement in a few years, what are your plans for the car?
do you guys/gals plan to replace the tank with a new(er) unit? if so, what prices have u seen? reading the forum it seems the cost to replace these tanks is in the several k price range which makes it not cost effective to spend that kind of money on such an old car. another option is buying a used tank on ebay but that may be hit or miss on finding a suitable replacement.

with 2013 a few years away, if the prices dont go down on new tanks i probably wont be left with choice but to sell the tank. everyone else considering doing the same?

[Tax Counsel]

Re: those w/ older honda civic GX's 98-01, gas tank replacement options?

My 1990 Crown Vic is in the same situation.

Still, at $2-4k I'd rather re-tank than replace my car. Any more than that and I'll be looking for a new set of wheels.

TC

[gringostar]

Re: those w/ older honda civic GX's 98-01, gas tank replacement options?

My guess is, we'll be able to get these tanks for $2000 a piece. If the tank is the exact same size and type, installation should be a snap. Remember, if you install a newer/older different tank, you'll have to install it and make sure it can withstand 8x it's own weight when filled. (Installation, in that case, can be quite steep).

Wasn't there a post a while back of someone arguing that tank expiration should be based on miles rather than age? My '98 GX has only 70k miles on it. I assume the tank is designed to withstand upwards of 200k miles worth of fills. If that were the case my tank still has 65% of its useful life left. I repeat, if that were the case.

[pro5utah]

Re: those w/ older honda civic GX's 98-01, gas tank replacement options?

I've been wondering what I will do when the time comes as well for me. I have a 99 GX and 2014 is coming up fast. I really don't know what the options will be. The 2-4k number seems a little steep to keep the car alive when you consider that you may be looking at a new regulator not long after that which will set you back another $2500. At the same time it seems a shame to scrap a perfectly good running car, especially when my GX has less than 65k on the odometer.

-Daniel

[larrycng]

Re: those w/ older honda civic GX's 98-01, gas tank replacement options?

The bre are several options you could consider:

1. Buy another tank (and maybe valve) from the OEM, that is the same size and install it as per instructions in the existing brackets
2. Look for another tank ( and maybe valve and PRD) of the same diameter and install it in the factory existing factory brackets (that should meet NFPA 52)
3. look for another tank and prackets (maybe valve and PRD) that can be attached to the honda "rack"
4. find some "Dude" that will take the car(maybe for money) and do one of the above.
5 Pay someone to take the car.

Whatever you do you will have to pay your money and take your chances.

You need to consider what the vehicle is worth running and ready to go vs. the vehicle sitting there without a tank and what it will take to get the vehicle legal and running. I'm the kinda of guy that will take care of the car , maybe a little overboard, and figuer I can keep the car another 10 years and consider the investment is well worth it. AND it probably cost a lot less than a new vehicle.

Just some things to consider

Larrycng

PS If you want to give it away, let me know

[John Mitton]

Re: those w/ older honda civic GX's 98-01, gas tank replacement options?

We are installing 18x36" cylinders in our Impalas, could possibly provide these to qualified upfitters to install on the older Civics. These essentially match the specifications of the current Honda tank but as I recall they are larger than 98-04 vintage Civics (from Lincoln Composites).

[Curtis]

Re: those w/ older honda civic GX's 98-01, gas tank replacement options?

Seems I recall reading that Honda recommends not reinstalling a used tank that has had the brackets removed. The unit should be changed out with the brackets left in place to avoid de-stressing the wrap

[Curtis]

Re: those w/ older honda civic GX's 98-01, gas tank replacement options?

John, isn't the PRD inside the factory Lincoln tank? And would this be an issue? All GX's have been equipped with 8gge tanks since '98 according to Honda literature. I don't know if the dimensions have varied from year to year.

[larrycng]

Re: those w/ older honda civic GX's 98-01, gas tank replacement options?

I may have mislead some with my previous post. PRD can not be transfered from one cylinder to another CNG cylinder, NFPA 52-10 sect 6.13.5 (4). If the PRD is in the Honda (GFI) valve as some are, then the valve could not be transfered to another cylinder (if it would fit). GFI made the electronic valve with and without PRD's. The non-PRD versions were used in some trnsit applications

Apologies

Larrycng

[John Mitton]

Re: those w/ older honda civic GX's 98-01, gas tank replacement options?

If someone can get me the dimensions of the Lincoln Composite tank for these older vehicles I will see if ours is a match. We can put in GFI valves / PRDs to keep the install consistent.

[venomous99]

Re: those w/ older honda civic GX's 98-01, gas tank replacement options?

john,
did u find out if these lincoln tanks can be used on civics? what would be the estimated costs to install one of these tanks? i guess what im getting at is trying to figure out if keeping the car by having a new tank installed by a qualified installer is worth it vs selling the car.


anyone know what the lifespan is of the pressure regulator? they seem to be an expensive part of the fuel system and it would be a shame to retro a new tank and find out the regulator is bad.

[pro5utah]

Re: those w/ older honda civic GX's 98-01, gas tank replacement options?

John,

I sent you a PM on this a while back. have you had a chance to read it?

-Daniel

[Dinubadave]

Re: those w/ older honda civic GX's 98-01, gas tank replacement options?

I have a 98 with only 53k miles, I'm not sure how many miles I'll have in 2013 but I doubt if I'll have over 100k. I'm new to the CNG world and I understand these tanks are 'rated' for 15 years but if your tank is passing inspections, why would you have to replace it. Who will be enforcing this?

[Curtis]

Re: those w/ older honda civic GX's 98-01, gas tank replacement options?

The tank police know who you are and where you live. The day after your tank reaches it's terminal date they wait at your favorite refueling location, handcuffs at the ready, and take you down as soon as you can turn the knob on the hose.

Actually, there have been a number of discussions on the forum about this subject, but it's always good to highlight once again. Firstly, there are no tank police. In fact, there is really no enforcement. The regulations (I believe it's NFPA 52 _ others can quote verse and text) are there to protect us against tank failures. I suspect that there is a formula wherein they calculate the average fill cycles a tank must experience during a given time frame, in this case 15 years. The heating/cooling and the expansion/contraction of a tank over it's life weaken the aluminum tank, as well as the carbon fiber over-wrap.

Obviously your vehicle is well below the "average", but this doesn't give you any extra time. The rule is based on the fact that the tank is certified for 15 yrs. Newer tanks can be certified either 15/20/25 years by their manufacturers, but a 15 yr tank is supposed to be removed and destroyed at the 15 yr point... no exceptions. It's probably not cost effective to replace the unit. More than the tank would have to be replaced, as you've probably read here and the cost may well exceed the value of the vehicle.

Can you keep driving it after the expiration date? That is your call, but it is illegal. Is it safe to do so given your low miles? You'll never know because you probably won't be able to have it inspected every 3/36 to certify it safe. The reason is that an inspector is supposed to remove and destroy an expired tank and can't technically certify the tank to return to the road (correct me if I'm in error here gang). Would he actually do it? Who knows...

It seems like you would be the exception to the rule based on your extremely low miles, but the fact is that there are no exceptions to the rule. This is one of the things to consider before buying any early cng vehicle approaching the tanks end-of-life date. The seller should disclose the issue (probably wouldn't) and price the vehicle accordingly. Unfortunately, many buyers get excited to find an affordable, low mile cng vehicle and either don't factor in tank replacement costs, or are unaware of the issue until they join our group and realize the situation. On some aftermarket converted vehicles it would be less expensive to reconcile. On the Honda's there is a bit of proprietary hardware integrated into the tank that must be replaced as well, bringing up the cost even more.

Someone may come up with a "work around" but it still wouldn't be cost effective given the tank alone can exceed $1,000. In some cases... by a significant margin. All I can say is drive the snot out of it and make every attempt to get your moneys worth out of her before you have to retire her [tank].

[Highmarker]

Re: those w/ older honda civic GX's 98-01, gas tank replacement options?

Curtis is "mostly" right. The expiration date is set by the Department of Transportation's Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard, DOT FMVSS 304 and ANSI NGV2. It is enforced by the National Highway Transportation Safety Adminsitration or NHTSA, however, they are not enforcing it. Your tank "should" be inspected every 3 years or 36,000 miles whichever comes first for damage and deterioration. Right now, the only state enforcing the inspection of the tank is Utah. One of the first things an inspector looks at when inspecting a tank is the tank expiration date. If it is past its expiration, the tank is to be condemned and removed from service. You don't know the history of your tank. You don't know if your tank was installed on a vehicle prior to be installed on yours. You don't know how many "miles" are actually on your tank. For this reason, you cannot and should not base the life of your tank on the mileage of your vehicle. If you use the tank past its expiration date, you put yourself and those around at risk. Bottom line...Don't use a tank that is past its expiration date.