Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Honda Civic GX - More Economical Than A Nissan Leaf!

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Honda Civic GX - More Economical Than A Nissan Leaf!

    Well, at least in Moore, OK...

    I was wondering how economical my 2012 GX is compared to an electric car, so I researched and did some math.

    According to Edmunds, the Nissan Leaf uses $454 of fuel to go 15,000 miles. If CNG continues to be .79 pge as it has been at my local 7-11, it would cost me $355 to go the same 15,000 miles (my city average is 33.4 MPG). Pretty noteworthy, I think.

    Of course, I do pay 2 to 3 times more for CNG when I venture out to Dallas or Tulsa for the day. But then again, I probably wouldn't attempt a 390 mile (roundtrip) day-trip in a leaf.

    Just a thought, though for folks in OK considering an economical car.

  • #2
    Re: Honda Civic GX - More Economical Than A Nissan Leaf!

    I think your savings are greater than you have indicated. If you figure the total cost of ownership and factor in the high resale value of CNG Civics, you are more economical than you realize. BTW, ONG Tulsa is .90. You are welcome to visit without busting your budget too badly.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Honda Civic GX - More Economical Than A Nissan Leaf!

      Leaf and Civic NG are completely different cars. For me switching to NG means no more worry about range and driving slow to conserve very limited amount of energy stored in the battery. The biggest problem in the Leaf was windows fogging and very ineffective heating. There is no EV charging infrastructure so planing RT above 80 miles is impossible. I am not sure how long we will enjoy very low CNG prices (50c per gge subsidy) but for now driving NG is cheaper than EV. I calculated cost of ownership (energy + car cost) of both based on net prices that I paid, and assuming that prices of cng and electricity will not change for 150KM and 10 years. The difference is $11450 Civic NG advantage, but cost of oil, high, low and oil filters should be subtracted from that. I do not think that my Leaf battery will last for 150KM, but price for battery is not known at this time and I am not sure how much Leaf will be worth after 10 years. Leaf have more equipment than Civic, however only think that I will want in Civic is rear view camera and nav ability to update cng stations.
      Last edited by exLeaf; 03-01-2013, 06:08 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Honda Civic GX - More Economical Than A Nissan Leaf!

        Did my Arlington trip today 476 miles with average 47.6 mpg which will be 1.6c per mile
        IMG_2401.JPG
        Last edited by exLeaf; 03-01-2013, 08:57 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Honda Civic GX - More Economical Than A Nissan Leaf!

          It all depends on where you live and the cost of fuel (electricity or NG). I live in Florida where range is problem for both the GX and the LEAF due to the lack of CNG stations and the slow charging rate for the LEAF. I owned a 2006 GX which I sold and replaced with a Cavalier which has bi-fuel capability. I also own a LEAF. I have a Coltri MCH-5 compressor for CNG fueling and a GE Wattstation for electric "fueling". In my case, these are additional costs for each vehicle that need to be calculated into the cost of ownership unless you can rely 100% on public fueling. Electricity costs where I live are about 15 cents per KWH, Compressed NG (from my own compressor) costs about $1.45 per GGE (fuel and electrical cost, no maintenance). At these cost levels, the LEAF costs $.0376 per mile and the Cavalier costs $.058 per mile in direct fuel costs. This is based on actual observations of the LEAF using electricity at the rate of one KW for four miles and the Cavalier using one gge for 25 miles of driving (city). If you were to plug in the higher fuel economy of the current GX into these numbers the title of this thread would be accurate. Also, my costs are almost equal at highway speeds where the LEAF's efficiency drops and the Cavalier's increases. The LEAF is also more sensitive to efficiency loss in cold weather due to heating requirements. I purchased both the Cavalier and the GX (along with the compressor) and Leased the LEAF. In considering the resale value in the equation, a purchase of the LEAF is out of the question. The actual prices being paid for a used LEAF are currently less then the residual value of the vehicle at my lease end which has 25 more months to go. On the other hand, I have owned several Cavaliers and have bought and sold them for very little if any cost. I have actually made money on some of them. As far as the GX goes, I did very well on selling that also--due to timing issues with the HOV requirements in California and shortage of GX's at the time. So for me, the LEAF is the cheaper (slightly) alternative. Both are easy to fuel with home fueling. Both the MCH-5 compressor and the Wattstation can be used with additional or different vehicles however the cost of the MCH-5 ($10K vs $1k for the Wattstation) really throws a monkey wrench into cost of ownership unless you spread it out over more then one vehicle. The LEAF is nicer to drive then the Cavalier and is much quieter and smoother then My '06 GX. Range on a full charge is a problem in the LEAF and is a reliable 70 miles under average conditions. The GX could hit well over 200 miles before you started looking for a CNG station. The Cavalier is a clear range winner here as it will do about 180-195 miles on the highway on CNG until it switches to gasoline which will let you go another 400 miles or so in search of a CNG station. Bottom line--both electric and CNG vehicles are cheap to operate and each have tradeoffs. If I only could have one vehicle, the only thing that makes sense is a CNG bi-fuel (unless I could afford a Tesla!)

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Honda Civic GX - More Economical Than A Nissan Leaf!

            During last weekend I did 876 miles total for the cng cost of $15.04 which translate to 1.716c/mile. That will be impossible with Leaf even with QC everywhere. I guess Leaf battery will just boil. I completely agree that all come down to infrastructure with both, but in case of OK we are not that bad with cng infrastructure (I think most will agree). I agree with you that right bi-fuel will be best solution for long distance travel. During my long distance adventure with NG (GX) if found GOM (Leaf version of DTE) to be very predictable. During this last weekend, I experienced single digit DTE twice in NG and not too much panic first time, only quite a bit during my Tulsa adventure with Honda automatic cng nav locator that missed location by about 0.4 mile (I now believe Honda navi is worthless option, for sure cng station guidance). Thank to cngnow.com all finished just great.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Honda Civic GX - More Economical Than A Nissan Leaf!

              Originally posted by RadioCityMike View Post
              I think your savings are greater than you have indicated. If you figure the total cost of ownership and factor in the high resale value of CNG Civics, you are more economical than you realize. BTW, ONG Tulsa is .90. You are welcome to visit without busting your budget too badly.
              I think you are correct. Last time up I filled at the Stroud station, so it was a bit more. I'm suprised more folks here aren't buying CNGs in Oklahoma. Maybe they're afraid of CNG prices going way up after they're invested.

              This is great conversation, by the way. More of what the CNG movement needs, IMO. Thanks for the comments, all!

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Honda Civic GX - More Economical Than A Nissan Leaf!

                I admire effort of State of Oklahoma, Chesapeake Energy and ONG to promote cng in our state. From my observations I am not really sure if Honda s really believing in Civic NG and cng in general. Infrastructure is a key to broad adoption, but I am not aware of any car manufacturer involvement in building it. Is not only that, but I can't recall any Civic NG commercials as well any other form of active marketing. Many people ask about a car so there is interest and I believe bigger Honda involvement will help to sell more cars here. On the other hand it appears that Nissan is taking different approach and very actively promote Leaf. Just to name few: active promotion in all markets, attractive leases, direct dialog and interaction with owners, addressing owners concerns, supporting upgrades by providing financial incentives and building QC infrastructure in key markets.
                I really enjoy my Civic because is a great car, but do not understand why Honda is not promoting it. If is to costly to promote in all areas then maybe promote in the areas that are experiencing rapid growth.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Honda Civic GX - More Economical Than A Nissan Leaf!

                  What about cost of repairs? Leaf should win out on that side of things.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Honda Civic GX - More Economical Than A Nissan Leaf!

                    Leaf may win on cost of repair, but battery replacement maybe an issue and big unknown. There is one owner that have 70KM on the Leaf and diminishing battery capacity is a big problem for him, if not quick charge, car won't be useful for him due to insufficient range. In our area there are no regular charging stations and there won't be quick chargers for long time. Charger is the most common failure on the Leaf (cost about 3K but so far warranty is taking care of this problem). I am driving Civic as a normal car, however with Leaf I have to really plan my trips and adding some side trips is difficult. What is very encouraging about Leaf is the relatively big numbers of cars on the road (comparing to Civic cng), numbers are in the same range about 15K however Leaf is sold for just a bit over 2 years so one can expect relatively big number of used spare parts.

                    As of low operating cost for Civic I do not expect low operating cost to last forever. Now we are enjoying 50c fed rebate that I do not think will be extended for a another year, as well as fed regulation on fracking may cause cng price increase. We have to buy cng or ng, but in case of EV there are options. I am seriously thinking about installing PV that will take care of fluctuation in electricity price. Volume is key to lower price of technology and with cng volume is not there.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Honda Civic GX - More Economical Than A Nissan Leaf!

                      The Civic and the LEAF both have some long term issues. For the Civic the major issue is being faced by several older Civic owners is end of life of the CNG fuel tank. Like the replacement of the battery on a (future) aging LEAF, the tank replacement usually costs more then the value of the car. Also with the Civic, there are many cases of regualtor and other big ticket issues that can hit you with a big bill down the line. As member "exLeaf" metioned it isn't like there are 10's of thousands of either of these vehicles laying in junk yards as a ready source of replacement parts---yet. Niche market vehicles are a crap shoot but I have been willing to roll the dice several times with them and have yet to be burned badly with any of them.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Honda Civic GX - More Economical Than A Nissan Leaf!

                        Originally posted by RadioCityMike View Post
                        ...high resale value of CNG Civics...
                        I see these really holding their value well. I imagine sites like Edmunds may be off on their appraisals (even though they list the GX) because there simply aren't enough for them to have solid numbers on. Is this true, or are the pricing figures from Edmunds accurate?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Honda Civic GX - More Economical Than A Nissan Leaf!

                          Originally posted by christoj879 View Post
                          I see these really holding their value well. I imagine sites like Edmunds may be off on their appraisals (even though they list the GX) because there simply aren't enough for them to have solid numbers on. Is this true, or are the pricing figures from Edmunds accurate?
                          Have you checked the "completed sale" prices on eBay? It might give you "some" idea of prices being fetched if you don't have access to dealer auction prices.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Honda Civic GX - More Economical Than A Nissan Leaf!

                            I paid $3.3K more for my 2012 that I bought in MO in November 2012 comparing to second one that I bought recently in FL

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Honda Civic GX - More Economical Than A Nissan Leaf!

                              Originally posted by siai47 View Post
                              The Civic and the LEAF both have some long term issues. For the Civic the major issue is being faced by several older Civic owners is end of life of the CNG fuel tank. Like the replacement of the battery on a (future) aging LEAF, the tank replacement usually costs more then the value of the car. Also with the Civic, there are many cases of regualtor and other big ticket issues that can hit you with a big bill down the line. As member "exLeaf" metioned it isn't like there are 10's of thousands of either of these vehicles laying in junk yards as a ready source of replacement parts---yet. Niche market vehicles are a crap shoot but I have been willing to roll the dice several times with them and have yet to be burned badly with any of them.
                              true about the cng tank cost but theres 2 things i would like to add

                              the cost of cng tanks in 15-20 years would hopefully be a lot more affordable then they are today, also unlike the leaf in 15-20 years the battery will be most likely be completely shot unlike the civic tank which can still be filled (though replacement should be completed at its expiration date, its not like the leaf that willl only be able to make it to the mailbox before a recharge)

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X