Newbie Questions

[Pentium]

I got a '97 Crown Vic with a Police Department done CNG bi-fuel after market kit. It has 111,000 miles on it. It is kind of rough. I've noticed two things:

1) It's positively worse at high temperatures and humidities.

2) I could swear it's worse when I fill from one station.

It stalls out at lights. You drive up on CNG. (Sometimes crawl up is closer.) Then you stop. Boom, dead. You can re-start. If you try you can manage to switch to gasoline before stopping fully and idle on it at the light, then switch back when you're going.

When it's on straight CNG, there are times that it is hard to get to fifteen miles an hour. It's miserable!

Thanks.

Pentium

[Airliner]

Re: Newbie Questions

I'm certainly a newb myself, but from what I have read, rough idling and stalls many times has to do with the seals and coils being bad. They can be cleaned out and replaced and most people says that helps. Probably wait for someone more experience to weigh in, but that might be a place to start.

[knowplus1]

Re: Newbie Questions

Does this occur on gasoline as well? To help you more I will need to know what kind of kit was used. Are there any identifying marks on the CNG mixer or regulator?

[Pentium]

Re: Newbie Questions

The controller inside the car is this part:
http://www.ecofuel.com/ProductDetail.aspx?id=7

FMS Digital Feedback System

Part Number:
EF-FMS9FT36

FMS Controller

Alternate Fuel Control processor for Fixed Venturi Mixers Kits.Can be used on most older fuel injected engines up to 2000 model year. Used for both LPG and CNG.

Specifications

The FMS display pannel integrates fuel selector switch, fuel gauge indicator, low fuel LED warning, gasoline, alternative fuel and service indicator. At the back of the display, an RJ11 connection is available for PC link for diagnostic and programming.

A picture off the manufacturer web page is below.

I took the Crown Vic for a test drive at about 12:30 AM. I figured it would be around 80 degrees and would test my temperature theory. It drove far better initially. I had it first on about four miles of surface street at 40 mph, then I went to freeway for about 10. I'd had one stall out at a light turning around, that's it. On the drive back, the engine check light went on and the car ran on petrol only and the error light on the FMS thingie is on. But it ran OK on petrol, both on freeway and surface streets.

Does this occur on gasoline as well? To help you more I will need to know what kind of kit was used. Are there any identifying marks on the CNG mixer or regulator?

[knowplus1]

Re: Newbie Questions

This helps. Ok what you have here is a kit made by ECO. It most likely has a Tartarini 4 stage regulator, which might be the whole problem. This is what you need to do: first you will need a volt meter to read the o2 signal; the volt meter will read in mV. You are looking for a rich or lean condition at idle, judging by the temperature comment I would guess that it is rich. To read this with a volt meter you will need ground the black lead of the volt meter and then connect the red lead to the black wire on your pre-cat o2 sensor. The reading will be around 800 to 021, rich to lean respectively. There is a black plastic knob on the regulator that adjusts idle mixture only. Turn this clockwise to adjust the regulator to lean out the mix and counterclockwise to make it rich. Read the o2 sensor and adjust accordingly. You will have to wait about 30 seconds and the FMS adjusts to this new setting. The FMS module is capable to adjusting mixture using the servo vapor valve; however you will not be able to monitor this without a laptop, software and “smart cable” from ECO. You will have to do some trial and error but you might be able to do this. If you do not feel comfortable doing this, by all means do not attempt. Take it to a CNG shop. Having used this software and laptop setup I can honestly say that the best thing to do is take it to a shop with this equipment. This could save you from damaging the car. All of this info might be useless because the Tartarini regulator is out of production to my knowledge. And from experience it seems to be the one part that kills the system. Did this help?

[Pentium]

Re: Newbie Questions

Thank you for the info.

We took it to the "mechanic" on Friday. They said it was the "servo in the fuel system." We spent $450. The car made it about 60 miles and less than 24 hours before the identical problem recurred. I'm definitely frustrated.

[Pentium]

Re: Newbie Questions

I downloaded the ECO Fuel Systems, Inc. ECOCOM software from http://www.ecofuel.com.

I'm willing to take a shot at it, I can't do worse than the mechanic.

Where do I get the cable?

[knowplus1]

Re: Newbie Questions

This is what I call a case of the “replace this first” approach to diagnosis. The mechanic will narrow down the possibilities to a few components and recommend replacing the cheapest to “start with”. This is only a good way to go when you don’t have the skill to exactly diagnose the problem.
ECO is the only place to get this cable from what I know it costs about $100. I need to buy my own, I have access to one but I want one for my own use. I think only “insiders” can buy it though. What I mean is that ECO will only sell to people who have a connection to the industry. I will do my homework on this for you if you like, since I need one too.
Getting back to the problem though, the symptoms point to the Tartarini regulator. I suspect a sticking 4th stage diaphragm. To fix this you might be able to take it apart and clean in. to do this, follow these directions exactly:
1. Turn off gas at ¼ turn.
2. Run the engine on CNG to drop inlet pressure to reg.
3. Put on safety glasses
4. Back off inlet swag-lok fitting to drain off the pressure from the inlet.
5. Now clamp off coolant lines, note which one is on top, it matters which way it flows.
6. Remove Reg from vehicle.
7. Place on clean surface, (it helps to pressure wash the Reg before removal)
8. If you have ever taken apart a carburetor this will be similar, remove back cover.
9. The back cover houses the 4th stage diaphragm, inspect any points of contact, fix any parts that might be binding.
10. Remember to keep your safety glasses on, pressure can become trapped inside regulator and release in bursts at strange times. Low pressures at this point but still startling.
11. If you are uncomfortable with lots of parts, don’t attempt further disassembly.
The other steps are yours to take. The ECO software and cable will tell you if the servo is being commanded to move, and which way (rich to lean) the servo is turning. If you find that the 4th stage diaphragm is not sticking, the next thing to look at is the lock off mounted to the reg. this is a solenoid coil mounted to the top of the Reg, if the lock off is somehow loosing connection intermittently this could cause the problem as well. This scenario is unlikely however and not something I would look for right away. Experience tells me it’s the regulator. Since Tartarini does not sell this type anymore, you might try a Mogas in place of the Tartarini, I have had some luck with them.

[Pentium]

Re: Newbie Questions

knowplus1,
If you can borrow one of those cables for five minutes, you should be able to use any sort of continuity test meter to get the pin outs. One end is RJ-11. The only question is which of those wires goes to what on the serial port end. I'd imagine one goes to the receive and one goes to the transmit and one goes to the data flow control and one goes to ground.

If you do get to borrow one, check it for the same wire on the RJ-11 end going to more than one pin and possibly them even crossing. Hopefully it isn't but you never know.

Once that pin-out is known you can have an electronics shop make one for $15 or so or you can make it yourself trivially if you know how to use a soldering iron.

If you're willing to experiment, it may be the industry semi-standard pinout.

http://www.adeptsystemsinc.com/downloads/pdf/serial-wiring.pdf

Or you can go to any large electronics store and get an RJ-11 to DB9 female connector. (about $15) and take some RJ-11 cord from like an old telephone and see if it plays. This has the advantage that it's quick to do and you could return it if it doesn't work.

http://www.buy.com/prod/terminal-adapter-rj-11-female-db-9-male/q/loc/101/10324329.html

http://www.lammertbies.nl/comm/cable/unitronics-rj11.html

The Crown Vic at one of the three Phoenix shops. The guy there says "Hey, I remember this car." He says he worked on it when it was a police car.

Let's hope for the best, and if the guy is willing to let me get a pin out on that cable I'll post it.

ECO is the only place to get this cable from what I know it costs about $100. I need to buy my own, I have access to one but I want one for my own use. I think only “insiders” can buy it though. What I mean is that ECO will only sell to people who have a connection to the industry. I will do my homework on this for you if you like, since I need one too.

[Pentium]

Re: Newbie Questions

AFVTECH said it was a corroded wire. He charged $120 to fix the car and to replace some hoses that needed changing. He's where my cars will go for any fuel system stuff from here!

The first place didn't even change the servo. They just charged for it. AFVTECH said the servo blatantly was old. I have already put it in dispute with Discover card and will call the State automobile repair complaint line.


Kevin Fern
CEO
AFVTech, Inc.
3134 West Lewis, Suite 45
Phoenix, AZ 85009
USA


Phone: (602) 233-0197
Mobile: (480) 600-5804
Email: [email protected]

[chengjj2]

Re: Newbie Questions

pentium,
are you still around? What happen to your search for the eco's cable. I am in the process putting one together.
just waiting for parts.

knowplus1,
If you can borrow one of those cables for five minutes, you should be able to use any sort of continuity test meter to get the pin outs. One end is RJ-11. The only question is which of those wires goes to what on the serial port end. I'd imagine one goes to the receive and one goes to the transmit and one goes to the data flow control and one goes to ground.

If you do get to borrow one, check it for the same wire on the RJ-11 end going to more than one pin and possibly them even crossing. Hopefully it isn't but you never know.

Once that pin-out is known you can have an electronics shop make one for $15 or so or you can make it yourself trivially if you know how to use a soldering iron.

If you're willing to experiment, it may be the industry semi-standard pinout.

http://www.adeptsystemsinc.com/downloads/pdf/serial-wiring.pdf

Or you can go to any large electronics store and get an RJ-11 to DB9 female connector. (about $15) and take some RJ-11 cord from like an old telephone and see if it plays. This has the advantage that it's quick to do and you could return it if it doesn't work.

http://www.buy.com/prod/terminal-adapter-rj-11-female-db-9-male/q/loc/101/10324329.html

http://www.lammertbies.nl/comm/cable/unitronics-rj11.html

The Crown Vic at one of the three Phoenix shops. The guy there says "Hey, I remember this car." He says he worked on it when it was a police car.

Let's hope for the best, and if the guy is willing to let me get a pin out on that cable I'll post it.

[Pentium]

Re: Newbie Questions

I am here, but the '97 is not. I now have an '03 that has a Ford factory system.

pentium,
are you still around? What happen to your search for the eco's cable. I am in the process putting one together.
just waiting for parts.

[chengjj2]

Re: Newbie Questions

knowplus1,
Are you still around? I too have a ECO system. It was installed in 2000. I too have problem with Tartarini regulator? Do you have any luck getting a Eco software cable? After taking apart the FMS control. the 4 wires going to RJ9 not RJ11 is exactly same as a USB ports setup. I believe the Eco smart cable is just a USB to 9 pins serial port converter.
To test out this, I already order a converter. My F150 truck is now locked with service lite on all the time. Do you know any other way to unlock it? I already try disconnect all power to FMS control. If I need another regulator where do you get a Mogas regulator? Any help will be greatly appreciated.
John
[email protected]

[Pentium]

Re: Newbie Questions

Hi. Well I know where an operational FMS system sits for my '97 Crown Vic. Would you like the gear out of it? If the price is fair, I am sure we can make a deal. I will send you a private mail, John.