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  • Cng vs gasoline

    I was in Knoxville today and saw gasoline for 2.99 with gasoline getting so cheap why would anyone want to spend 10 or 20 thousand to ride on fuel that is a dollar cheaper. It makes me wonder if it is done by the oil giants to slow the use of natural gas. It seems to me that whenever cng seems to be picking up steam the price of gasoline falls. of coarse I know that it is just a trick and the price will go up again. but the site seems real slow .I just wonder if the low gasoline prices are the cause.

  • #2
    Re: Cng vs gasoline

    Part of the reason is that the industry and consumers are not accountants and don't know how to figure pay back time. They always forget to figure in increased resale value. When I bought my first CNG vehicle, I paid $3000 more than what it would have been without CNG. Two years later when I sold it, it went for $3000 more than it would have without CNG. So what was my payback period? If you say two years, then all of the fuel savings went into my pocket.

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    • #3
      Re: Cng vs gasoline

      One thing to realize is the $1 approximate gallon hidden cost of gasoline in tax to support the 5th fleet in the mid east. We pay 100% protection for access to the oil and only get 10% of the oil that passes through that area. (Strait of Hormuz - example) Sending our children and grandchildren to fight in the volatile mid east needs to end and oil is a major influence and supports funding terrorists and war.

      The US spent $33 billion last month on imported oil. Sorry but I feel we could cut out OPEC completely and lessen the risks considerably.

      A billion dollars a day. That in my view is insanity for a dirtier product. There will always be a place for oil in society but less is the key.

      Being that cowboy started the thread, I feel he is talking about the higher end... Trucking cost upfit, or maybe light vehicle and home fueling. Likely the former though.

      For trucks - it is obvious they drive a lot and get low mpg and write off the truck and mileage.

      For light vehicles - there are benefits for business use similar to trucks. Private use may have short term ROI is a lot of mileage is clocked but look at other motives for the investment. Clean air and American energy security to name a couple.

      Home and private fleet fueling have incentives of tax credit(s) and generally 1/2 price fuel costs.
      Home fueling $1000 tax credit and about a $1 gge.
      Private fleet fueling 30% tax credit up to $30,000 plus depreciation and in some cases $.50 gge rebate. Non- profit tax rebate is 50% up to $50,000 but not depreciable. The $.50 gge rebate may apply.

      Fence sitters be warned. The tax credit expires 12/31 and depends on the Senate to reinstate it.

      CH4, methane, natural gas or other name applied to it is the best fuel of choice because it is domestic, clean, abundant, renewable and sustainable. Yes, sustainable unless technology can eliminate human waste. (landfills, sewage, industrial waste, manure, food waste...)

      There is noise that H2 is the cleanest. Only in sunny regions. Otherwise it would be reformed from NG. Hydrogen has it's own set of technological hurdles to overcome and it is still way off for mainstream use.

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      • #4
        Re: Cng vs gasoline

        nope I was not talking about heavy trucks as it is a no brainer for them. for heavy trucks it is 60 to 80 grand hit plus another 25 for a compressor. but well worth it. I am thinking about the guy who drives 50 to 100 mile round to get to work and back and than take momma to the store. most people are not like us tecky members here. most people are going to buy a new pick up and there is a 10 to 20 grand bump for cng depending on how many tanks. that is a big hit to save one dollar per gallon. now I know there are some who will do it to be green. but for most it is the omighty dollar that motivates.

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        • #5
          Re: Cng vs gasoline

          And I think we'll see prices at the pump continue to fall. Crude oil is off just over 10% form its August highs. Gasoline is off just a little more than that. While the relationship between the two prices isn't linear, they do trend together. Now that crude is heading down, there is still more downside in the future, probably in the -15% range but it could be more and we might see prices near $80/brl by the end of the year. Both China and India have economic woes and we're getting into our low demand season. Gasoline futures are already near their 2-year lows, while crude has a ways to fall. I think gas will continue to drop from here. (Theoretically you can take the futures price and add in the taxes and that's the price you should pay at the pump. But the gas dispensed today wasn't purchased today, rather weeks ago, so pump prices trail this a bit, but you can see where they're going.)

          Natty Gas on the other hand is on the rise. Seasonal factors are really coming into play here, with the Farmer's Almanac predicting a colder than normal winter ahead. What will be interesting is what happens to CleanEnergy's pump prices. Gas will drop, they will be forced to drop their prices as a result of their pricing strategy, natty gas gets more expensive for them to dispense, and they'll feel the squeeze. Too bad it's too cheap to short.
          Attached Files

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          • #6
            Re: Cng vs gasoline

            Predicting the future is....

            There are a number of factors involved.
            Which oil market you are watching. Gasoline prices are based from Brent Crude as the benchmark.
            Israel just launched a couple retaliatory rockets. This will likely have a market impact on the mid east prices some.
            RBOB gas and switch over seasonal fuel and maintenance shut downs.
            Storms disrupting supply.
            Economy - as long as the economy is in the tank it will help keep prices low.
            I'm sure there are more factors. (production, imports, CNG/LNG use, ethanol, world usage...)

            To me it is quite simple. I don't care what oil does. Keeping our kids and grands out of the volatile mid east, the environment, domestic American fuel use, Cutting OPEC dependency and the money sent to them, and the list continues. And I save about $2.50 every 18 miles. (18 mpg)

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            • #7
              Re: Cng vs gasoline

              Gasoline has dropped but I still pay more than 50% less with CNG. In utah. Love it! Also, if you are paying $10k to $20k to convert CNG you are getting ripped off.

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              • #8
                Re: Cng vs gasoline

                Nobody has touched up supply and demand and its affect on the price of gasoline and CNG. With 1-2 CNG stations being delivered to customers per day, the demand for gasoline and/or diesel goes down. therefore the price goes down. CNG in my opinion has not increased due to demand because the supply and inventories are increasing to offset the price increases. As for CE, their pricing strategy has always seemed to be price CNG at a dollar below liquid fuels which is gouging but hey, it is a free market economy, they are making big profits while they can. Eventually the competition in the market place will catch up with them and if a station opens up just down the street from a CE station and sells CNG for 50 cents less, theyt will be forced to drop their price.

                the bottom line is that the infrastructure continues to grow and we see see stations in areas where CNG was not to be found. Now if the EPA would just get out of the way, things wuld be great but that is another thread.

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                • #9
                  Re: Cng vs gasoline

                  yep you are right about the epa. and as far as 10 to 20 grand for the upgrade on a new pick it seems to be the going rate. I agree that it is a ripoff as I spend 2 to3 grand to convert a pick up

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                  • #10
                    Re: Cng vs gasoline

                    Attached is a slide from one of my recent presentations showing cost differential and payback analysis between Class 8 over the road trucks on both diesel and natural gas. It also looks at additional weight requirements.

                    Class-8-payback-slide.jpg

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                    • #11
                      Re: Cng vs gasoline

                      Originally posted by cowboy View Post
                      nope I was not talking about heavy trucks as it is a no brainer for them. for heavy trucks it is 60 to 80 grand hit plus another 25 for a compressor. but well worth it. I am thinking about the guy who drives 50 to 100 mile round to get to work and back and than take momma to the store. most people are not like us tecky members here. most people are going to buy a new pick up and there is a 10 to 20 grand bump for cng depending on how many tanks. that is a big hit to save one dollar per gallon. now I know there are some who will do it to be green. but for most it is the omighty dollar that motivates.
                      "but for most it is the omighty dollar that motivates."



                      Cowboy hit it square on the nailhead. It would take a ban on oil imports to change this. In the mean time, we continue to arm and enrich folks who hate the west and want us dead, by buying oil from them.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Cng vs gasoline

                        Originally posted by John Mitton View Post
                        Attached is a slide from one of my recent presentations showing cost differential and payback analysis between Class 8 over the road trucks on both diesel and natural gas. It also looks at additional weight requirements.

                        [ATTACH=CONFIG]4025[/ATTACH]
                        nice chart whos storage and how many dge for 40000?

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                        • #13
                          Re: Cng vs gasoline

                          The chart assumes two side rail 26" x 90" cylinders from Quantum / Agility or Lincoln which hold about 45 DGE each. I have seen pricing around $40k for this fully installed. The new 12 liter Cummins Westport spark natural gas engine is getting from 6 to 7 miles per DGE.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Cng vs gasoline

                            It's all about the politics. As long as there is an excuse to get higher taxes from gasoline than from a cleaner fuel, we'll see the politicians pulling the bandwagon of hybrids and other foolish gas hogs instead of a really cleaner solution.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Cng vs gasoline

                              As much as I like our Civics NG, the main reason that we switch to cng was for financial reasons. Last year was great and we saved about $2500 driving about 35KM. However, situation is different this year because cng price nearly double. This year we will drive less miles, and projected saving will be $635 for car traveling 15KM, and $423 for car traveling 10KM. We always owned efficient small cars, and still have nearly brand new gasoline car that we keep for longer trips where larger trunk size is needed, or there is no enough cng stations.

                              Now, there is a dilemma keep two Civics or sell one, and use gasoline car as replacement for all trips. Even here in OK where we have many cng stations I do not expect competitive spirits between cng owners anytime soon. Based on present commodity prices ($2.68 gasoline, $0.65 ng for 1 gge of cng), $0.2 for ng compression, and 10% overhead/profit gasoline price should be $3.34 and cng price should $1.33. Right now gasoline price is $3.07 and cng price is $1.79 and is not adjusted for $0.10 tax increase scheduled for 2015.

                              I do not think I will be able to buy HRA at he price comparable to evse anytime soon and I am not really interested to buy HRA at present prices.

                              I know that situation is very different for people driving less efficient cars or driving many miles or benefiting from HOV lines, but in my case benefit of owning cng dedicated car with $6.5K premium over gasoline disappeared so quickly.
                              Last edited by exLeaf; 02-06-2014, 09:49 AM.

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