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Who needs LNG for trucks?

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  • Who needs LNG for trucks?

    I spoke to a rep. from Quantum. They make state of the art CNG cylinders. He said that with a dual fuel system a class 8 truck could get about 500 miles on a fill, figuring 6 mpg. My question is, who needs LNG then? He says LNG allows more room for other things and more storage. I say so what. You are paying more for LNG, the conversion, and maybe the maintenance. Your payback will be longer. It is a more complex system and must be used before it warms. 500 miles is an eight hour trip, surely you need a break after around eight hours of driving. I am told that the LNG trucks can get about 800 miles before refueling.

    I noticed a tank under a truck trailer yesterday. Is that for diesel? Is this something new?

    Who can give me the other side of the story?
    Last edited by Ron Wagner; 01-21-2013, 06:57 PM.

  • #2
    Re: Who needs LNG for trucks?

    For starters, An LNG station is quick to build, no compressors, no gas line needed, and only a fraction of the electrical needed to run the cryopumps.Station cost is a fraction of cng. It can be 250 miles from a Liquification plant. This is the bridge that links large areas of the US without natural gas on the highway system.

    Cost ? LNG is sold per DGE (135,000 btu) Locally Diesel is $4.05(135,000 btu) at the truck stops, LNG is $2.89 DGE (135,000 btu) last time I looked at it.

    ? Was the tank under the truck trailer for an on-board reefer system ?
    Last edited by Lakewood90712; 01-21-2013, 07:36 PM. Reason: typo

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    • #3
      Re: Who needs LNG for trucks?

      That makes sense to me. In other words it is for places that do not have piped gas, plus the space advantage, and even longer range. I never could figure why CNG was more expensive to build out. It seemed counterintuitive to me.

      I don't even know what a reefer system is. Is that refrigeration? I just saw a tank under the cargo trailer. A short stubby one. Maybe that is what it was for.

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      • #4
        Re: Who needs LNG for trucks?

        So then is all LNG trucked in from a liquification plant, and placed in holding tanks, and then cooled to keep it in liquid form? not liquified on site?

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        • #5
          Re: Who needs LNG for trucks?

          This would be useful information in overall big picture for build-out of ANGH (America's Natural Gas Highway) where the 150 LNG sites are planned by Clean Energy / Chesapeake. How many of these will actually be ON-SITE liquification plants where raw NG is compressed and supercooled on-site?

          Maybe 300MileClub has some info on this?

          Benefit of LNG is more DENSE fuel (as compared to CNG) which works well for long-haul OTR trucks as LNG tanks are similar in size to diesel . . . just more expensive! Part I'm not clear about is "shelf life" of these LNG sites that rely strictly on trucked-in / railed-in LNG supply to the site? If kept at super-cooled temp, then no problem . . . right?

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          • #6
            Re: Who needs LNG for trucks?

            The liquification is done at a plant , then trucked to the station as a finished fuel product. Management of product turnover at the station minimizes boil off losses at the station. A few stations use thermal expansion , or mechanical compression, or both to also produce CNG at the site. This is a great use of boil off gas. At this time, most LNG stations do not have CNG available.

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            • #7
              Re: Who needs LNG for trucks?

              " How many of these will actually be ON-SITE liquification plants where raw NG is compressed and supercooled on-site? "

              AFAIK , none. IIRC , they currently have 3 large LNG Liquification plants , and truck the -260 pure liquid methane to the stations. C.E and Chesapeake are not the only players. Look for Shell , Exxon , Chevron and all of the others to pile on if $ can be made. Once the chickens and the eggs are in the same place at the same time ,the LNG trucks and the stations.

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              • #8
                Re: Who needs LNG for trucks?

                Center Point Energy has a liquification plant somewhere west of Minneapolis. Pretty sure Kwik trip is getting it from there. They have LNG at the distribution center in Onalaska, WI.

                When i go there I use the LCNG pump. It is off gas from the LNG and I love it. Clean, pure 130 octane and a great fill. I think that even though it is a gas it may still be at sub zero temperature limiting the expansion of filling. I normally get 300 miles on a fill (time fill) or 250-275 fast fill but I once ran 375 miles and was on fumes when I got home but not empty. I was tempted to keep driving to see when it would be empty. (I'm not quite that crazy after a long day behind the wheel and getting home late - maybe someday)

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                • #9
                  Re: Who needs LNG for trucks?

                  Pros and cons of LCNG discussed in this article: http://www.chiyodakikai.co.jp/en/lcng.html

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                  • #10
                    Re: Who needs LNG for trucks?

                    It is sad to see all the lng stations going in and not all of them will have cng. I made my bed many years ago and went with cng and it has worked well for me. but as I am set up to use cng I have been thinking of how to put a high pressure tank on my truck that I could put lng in and and slam the valve closed than turn the hot water on to a tube in or on the tank to vaporise it and have it flow at high pressure into the cng tanks. or a liquid high pressure pump pto driven and a piece of stainless tube in hot water to boil it off anyone have any ideas.would a large motor have the btus to boil it off in the water or would I have to use ex heat as it is alot of cold there. what is the fill pressure for lng? thanks for any and all ideas

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                    • #11
                      Re: Who needs LNG for trucks?

                      Short answer for rhetorical "Who Needs LNG for Trucks?" - - - - - ALL of US !! Especially we little small-fry CNG users, as we need the "burnoff byproduct" of LNG plants, which is nearly pure methane CNG!! So let's urge all LNG locations to have public cng for sale!

                      While looking around on www.ngvamerica.org found a couple cool sites with RECAP information regarding LNG sites in USA.

                      See info that there's been LNG sites operational dating back to 60's and 70's at:
                      http://member.zeusintel.com/LNGFuel/Plant/Index.aspx
                      Recent new LNG sites listed include Clean Energy liquefaction in 2008 (Boron, CA) that has 180,000 LNG gge/daily and the unique Waste Mgmt liquefaction at landfill (WORLD's Largest Landfill to LNG at Linde Altamont near Livermore, CA in 2009) that has 13,000 LNG gge/daily. See more info on Landfill LNG at:
                      http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...-68578542.html

                      The "800 lb Gorilla" on the list is Distrigas in Everett, MA in 1971 that has 1,000,0000 LNG/gge daily capability. Curious that I don't see any Alaska LNG sites?? Found some info that Conoco/Phillips has LNG plant in Kenai, AK - - - see info at: http://alaska.conocophillips.com/EN/...hCookInlet.pdf

                      Still in infancy of LNG/CNG as transportation fuel . . . . let the revolution begin!

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                      • #12
                        Re: Who needs LNG for trucks?

                        You might try the Cr4.globalspec.com engineering forum also. They try to solve such problems. Sounds dangerous to me. I would stick to CNG. What is your reason for wanting LNG? Check out Quantums new advanced tanks. Thanks for the links!
                        Last edited by Ron Wagner; 01-25-2013, 11:20 AM.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Who needs LNG for trucks?

                          I am a big fan of LNG as storage for CNG, but do not totally understand the pros and cons of using LNG instead of CNG on trucks as a cost effective choice. That was the purpose of LNG. Of course we need LNG for storage in some high demand storage such as terminals for shipping it overseas. The same would apply to remote areas that need large supplies readily available, or factories not on a large pipeline etc.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Who needs LNG for trucks?

                            Just found a great video explaining the differences between CNG and LNG applications. It is from Cummins Westport. It mentions that up to a 150 DGE tank system can be mounted on their CNG installations:
                            http://www.cumminswestport.com/natur...and-refuelling

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                            • #15
                              Re: Who needs LNG for trucks?

                              It looks like Alaska will go with LNG terminals inland, that will get LNG trucked to them. The LNG will be reduced to CNG and then feed local pipelines in cities like Fairbanks, and its suburbs. Hopefully that will spread to a lot of areas. This is being done in Maine, for energy intensive businesses also. The LNG will be trucked. It could also travel by rail. I am wondering why the propane industry is not more competitive. There is a glut of propane available. My guess is that they are exporting it for higher prices.

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