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Clean Energy pumps in Las Vegas soon

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  • #16
    Re: Clean Energy pumps in Las Vegas soon

    Once again I say "Welcome to the free market". Feel free to open your own station, charge less and take a smaller profit. Any semi-inteliegent busness person would do the same exact thing, charge as much as the market will bear.

    Just because you wish CNG were less expensive doesn't mean it should be. That's not how the free market works.

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    • #17
      Re: Clean Energy pumps in Las Vegas soon

      It's easy to support the "free market" when you're in Utah--paying less than $1 per GGE, about one-half to one-third of what the rest of us pay.

      "Wish[ing] CNG were less expensive" isn't my point--I'm fortunate to no longer depend on CE as my primary CNG fuel source. CE's probable status as monopoly and its (in my opinion) anti-competitive behavior are my concerns.

      Markets are not free when one vendor acquires a monopoly. In response, our federal and state governments, time and time again, have shown a willingness to step in when a service provider has acquired monopoly market power, or when market participants become anticompetitive. Whether it be the phone, electricity, or home natural gas markets, monopolies became regulated so that consumers are protected from price gauging.

      Remember how we would up with the Bell System (and how it was broken up)? Now that other vendors are competing for local phone service, the need for phone regulation has diminished. Cable TV is also facing similar competition as satellite and local telco's enter the market for media programming. They, too, are facing reduced regulation.

      CE--and its market share--on the other hand are growing. If you fuel in Long Beach, you effectively have no choice, other than to install an FM-4 or a Phill (Oh yeah, CE tried to buy Fuelmaker, too). Another member mentioned CE's reaction when its competition (albeit municipal) closed their public operations in Washington state.

      Filling stations are expensive, I get that. CE, however, gets both tax credits and subsidies for constructing them. They then charge a price that reflects more the cost of the substitute (gasoline) instead of a profit based on their construction/compression/commodity prices. Because of CE's lack of competition, they get away with it.

      I'm not opposed to strong market participants, but CE's alleged monopoly is too much for me.
      Last edited by Tax Counsel; 11-12-2008, 02:44 PM. Reason: 'Cause I can't type well.

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      • #18
        Re: Clean Energy pumps in Las Vegas soon

        There was a time (winter 06-07) that I was fueling my car at the CE pump in Moreno Valley because it was 30 cents cheaper than my local pump. It is not as convienient but I figured I could save a few bucks every week. I dont think those days will return. BTW they finally fixed the price at my local pump actually matches what it says on the pump ($1.902), that's 46 cents less than the MV CE pump. Propane locally is 1.69, gasoline about 2.39
        Last edited by jetboatjohnny; 11-12-2008, 02:56 PM.
        BLUE 09 GX

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        • #19
          Re: Clean Energy pumps in Las Vegas soon

          Yeah in Utah we have an actual monopoly, who is regulated. In California you a company that through the free market has earned a virtual monopoly in the market place and there is nothing illegal about it and they are not regulated. If you feel there is something illegal about their practices you should contact the Secretary of State and the DOJ's Anti-Trust division and get them to look into it but I for one would do exactly the same thing because it's good business sense.

          Why shouldn't CE price their fuel at whatever the market will bear? Just because in Utah Questar takes and passes on a portion of the tax incentives doesn't mean that a for-profit entity (note that phrase it's important) should do the same thing. CE has a legal obligation to it's shareholders to earn the greatest profit available to it and has no legal obligation to provide end users cheap fuel.

          If CE Comes to Utah and starts selling fuel for $2.00+ I'd probably sell my CNG truck off and go back to driving the Subaru as a day to day vehicle. If the CNG prices are unreasonable to you, pull the plug and go back to gasoline.

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          • #20
            Re: Clean Energy pumps in Las Vegas soon

            Originally posted by cngacrossusa View Post
            Yep, GringoStar is right, Clean Energy - - - aka GREED ENERGY - - - is up to their old tricks - - - trying to get monopoly position in town that will allow it to charge whatever they want!!!

            Look at Albuquerque, NM like I warned about back in 2007 (search CNGCHAT for Save Albuquerque) - - - - ABQ, NM used to be run by the University of NM and only $2.00 per gge, but now under CE (ie GREED ENERGY) price has jumped to $2.60 per gge - - - - that's a 30 PERCENT increase with absolutely NO infrastructure improvement whatsoever!!! Just GREEDY CE taking over a critical location on primary route so they can charge whatever they want!!!

            We educated CNG users on CNGCHAT need to BAND TOGETHER with help from John and Curtis and newly President elect Obama or ANYONE to stop the monopolization of public cng pumps by CE. This is exactly NOT what we need to spread cng across the country is prices that now EXCEED the pump price of unleaded petrol (down to only $1.89 here in OK/KS/AR area for unleaded). It's time for a TRANSPORTATION REVOLUTION . . . don't let CE get any more subsidies or grants if they price-gouge public cng pumps they take over. Don't let CE get ANY subsidies whatsoever for a new site unless they offer reasonably priced cng (like UNDER $2 per gge - - I'm sure $1.75/gge allows for plenty of profit margin). Don't let GM or Ford get any bailout money if they don't immediately sell cng, electric, diesel and economical vehicles that they sell to other countries. ENOUGH is Enough!!!

            Sincerely . . . . cngacrossusa (I may be old, but I know when I'm getting scammed!)
            Maybe we should stop using CE whenever possible. I use Trillium whenver possible.
            1998 Honda GX
            ebike

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            • #21
              Re: Clean Energy pumps in Las Vegas soon

              Originally posted by Tax Counsel View Post
              Markets are not free when one vendor acquires a monopoly. In response, our federal and state governments, time and time again, have shown a willingness to step in when a service provider has acquired monopoly market power, or when market participants become anticompetitive. Whether it be the phone, electricity, or home natural gas markets, monopolies became regulated so that consumers are protected from price gauging.

              Remember how we would up with the Bell System (and how it was broken up)? Now that other vendors are competing for local phone service, the need for phone regulation has diminished. Cable TV is also facing similar competition as satellite and local telco's enter the market for media programming. They, too, are facing reduced regulation.

              CE--and its market share--on the other hand are growing. If you fuel in Long Beach, you effectively have no choice, other than to install an FM-4 or a Phill (Oh yeah, CE tried to buy Fuelmaker, too). Another member mentioned CE's reaction when its competition (albeit municipal) closed their public operations in Washington state.
              The market IS free, as there is nothing preventing the building of competitive stations. Don't blame CE that no-one has had the 'balls' to take the risk and build a station in Long Beach. If someone did, they would be virtually guaranteed to make a profit, as there is nothing CE could do to prevent it.

              This is nothing like the Bell problem. That was a true monopoly as they were using government intervention and restricted right-of-way to ensure no-one COULD compete.

              I can think of NO examples where CE has used their market share to push any competitor out of business. All they have done is 'swindle' the local municipalities out of the market, which is their fault, not CE's.
              1997 Factory Crown Victoria w/ extended tanks ~~ Clunkerized!
              2000 Bi-Fuel Expedition --> ~~ Sold ~~ <--

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Clean Energy pumps in Las Vegas soon

                Originally posted by cngacrossusa View Post

                Look at Albuquerque, NM like I warned about back in 2007 (search CNGCHAT for Save Albuquerque) - - - - ABQ, NM used to be run by the University of NM and only $2.00 per gge, but now under CE (ie GREED ENERGY) price has jumped to $2.60 per gge - - - - that's a 30 PERCENT increase with absolutely NO infrastructure improvement whatsoever!!! Just GREEDY CE taking over a critical location on primary route so they can charge whatever they want!!!
                Your information on this is wrong, CE does not set the price at the UNM station, it is still set by the university, check your facts before you go on a rant.

                We opened Santa Fe trails and Sunport to the public, price is $2.19 and will be coming down again soon. If we set the price at UNM it would be $2.19, but we havent completed the deal yet.

                As for the vegas sites, not sure what retail will be, but certainly not $2.79. We dont have anything that high right now. My guess would be around $2.09today, we will likely do another price drop soon.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Clean Energy pumps in Las Vegas soon

                  Market economics don't work when one company has a monopoly or near-monopoly and the price of entry is impossibly high. The only people that can compete with Clean Energy are municipalities who have no 'land' cost -- they have access to unused land for virtually no cost. Clean Energy often makes deals to get the land for a public station as part of supplying the city with its CNG service.
                  02 GX
                  01 GX
                  03 Crown Vic
                  06 GX
                  Home Fueler

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                  • #24
                    Re: Clean Energy pumps in Las Vegas soon

                    Originally posted by CraziFuzzy View Post
                    I can think of NO examples where CE has used their market share to push any competitor out of business. All they have done is 'swindle' the local municipalities out of the market, which is their fault, not CE's.
                    Last edited by Tax Counsel; 11-12-2008, 07:44 PM. Reason: 'Cause I still can't type.

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                    • #25
                      Re: Clean Energy pumps in Las Vegas soon

                      Hey Hansonc and Dick,

                      How bout the next YOU go to the Post Office, they charge you $0.85 for a stamp instead of the standard $0.42 ?? How would you like it?? USPS is no different from CE, they are getting massive subsidies, and entitled to a profit . . . not MASSIVE, SINFUL, GREED profit that CE is charging. No public cng should be $2.89 per gge whatsoever, that's just pure greed.

                      If you a CE employee or stockholder, that's your problem. Just don't try to tell me "It's OK" to get ripped off by CE for their policy of fleecing the customer for public cng, and expect me to feel good about it!!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Clean Energy pumps in Las Vegas soon

                        Folks please stay on topic regarding the Las Vegas stations.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Clean Energy pumps in Las Vegas soon

                          I cried this morning when I filled up in Vegas and there was a CE sticker
                          on the pump. The bottom line is what will happen to the price of CNG
                          in the Vegas market? If CE keeps it at/near the Haycock price, no problem. Time will tell.

                          I am really waiting for someone to build a reliable, lower price home refueling system to compete with Fuelmaker. That will add more competition, which I believe is healthy. That will be my backup if the price or availability of CNG in Utah changes.

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                          • #28
                            Re: Clean Energy pumps in Las Vegas soon

                            Anyone know if Clean Energy has updated the pumps in vegas with card readers for visa / mc / amex?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Clean Energy pumps in Las Vegas soon

                              Originally posted by xcalibr23 View Post
                              Anyone know if Clean Energy has updated the pumps in vegas with card readers for visa / mc / amex?
                              Yes, all the upgraded sites will take Visa / MC, no Amex though.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Clean Energy pumps in Las Vegas soon

                                i fill in utah and vegas almost everyday,as of 6/23-6/25 it was 2.09 gge in vegas. i can easily put 14 gge in when using the questar pumps in utah but the ce pumps in vegas fill so fast iv'e never been able to put more than 10 gge in.

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