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Why I passed on Phill

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  • #16
    Re: Why I passed on Phill

    cowboy here I must be missing the point 1gge per hour? I burn 3000 cf per day sometimes I use a 15scfm compresser so I get about 9 gge per hour. useing a phill unit it is going backwards when I bought my compresser for 1250.00 and spent 1500 having it changed over to cng and has life ex of 20000 hours because it has oil in it why would any one build a compresser without a way to oil it? would you drive your car without oil in it ? I think the goverment is just letting us play but hopeing we give up I have been running cng since 1981 and have put a pencil to the phill unit and cant figure how to come out on it and I have free gas just pay tax so being I need 30gge per day it cant do the job or be cost effective so I to passed on phil so happy clean driving cowboy

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    • #17
      Re: Why I passed on Phill

      Originally posted by cowboy View Post
      cowboy here I must be missing the point 1gge per hour? I burn 3000 cf per day sometimes I use a 15scfm compresser so I get about 9 gge per hour. useing a phill unit it is going backwards when I bought my compresser for 1250.00 and spent 1500 having it changed over to cng and has life ex of 20000 hours because it has oil in it why would any one build a compresser without a way to oil it? would you drive your car without oil in it ? I think the goverment is just letting us play but hopeing we give up I have been running cng since 1981 and have put a pencil to the phill unit and cant figure how to come out on it and I have free gas just pay tax so being I need 30gge per day it cant do the job or be cost effective so I to passed on phil so happy clean driving cowboy
      What compressor are you using?

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      • #18
        Re: Why I passed on Phill

        Where does it say that you can't take the fuel credit more than once?

        I read the link and it does not state that as far as I can see.

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        • #19
          Re: Why I passed on Phill

          For the FMQ, with your figures:
          If the refueling rate is 0.90gge/hr and the initial lifetime before service is 4000 hours then to get the total number of GGEs the system will produce before the first service you need to multiply the two, resulting in 3600 total GGEs



          Phill:
          3,982/(0.46x6000)+1.25 = $2.69 per GGE (for SoCal)
          76,500/12,000 = 6.375 years



          Either way, to use SoCal as an example again, it costs $2.43 per GGE for NG at the pump, so that might ultimately be the cheaper route minus the convenience.

          QUOTE]

          I live in SoCal and my provider is TheGasCompany.
          My current over baseline rate per therm is $1.63.
          I heard I could get a discount on my therm rate when using it to fuel a car.
          Is that true?

          And my calc for the gge cost at home would be $1.63*1.25 (therm to gge multiplier) = $2.0375 per GGE. Is that accurate?
          (I have excluded the equipment costs)

          Are the AQMD subsidies for the Phill still available or are the 200 subisdies used up?

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          • #20
            Re: Why I passed on Phill

            I live in SoCal and my provider is TheGasCompany.
            My current over baseline rate per therm is $1.63.
            I heard I could get a discount on my therm rate when using it to fuel a car.
            Is that true?

            And my calc for the gge cost at home would be $1.63*1.25 (therm to gge multiplier) = $2.0375 per GGE. Is that accurate?
            (I have excluded the equipment costs)

            Are the AQMD subsidies for the Phill still available or are the 200 subisdies used up?

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Why I passed on Phill

              Filling at a Clean Energy filling station VS. home fueling. I live just north of Los Angeles. I have put on paper the costs of refueling at a Clean Energy site vs buying a PHIL. Please check my math (perhaps I am not taking into consideration an aspect that you are aware of). I drive 21,600 miles per year - 1,800 mile per month. My Toyota Tacoma gets 25 mpg. A GX gets 35 mpg. I buy 864 gal. of gas for the Truck, and would buy 617 cgg /cng. for the GX per year. At $4.50 /gal. the truck costs me $3,888. yr OR $324. mo. The GX at $2.25 / gal (at San Fernando Clean Energy station) would cost $1,388. yr OR $208 mo. in fuel. This comes to a net savings of $2,500 yr OR $208 mo. with the GX vs. my truck. To fuel at home the cgg at $1.35 would cost me $832 per yr OR $69.50 mo. The net savings of buying CNG at home vs. the San Fernando Clean Energy station is $556.00 yr. OR $46.40 mo. Now here comes the interesting part -- it would take me 7.2+ years to save the difference of filling up at home (buying a PHIL for $4,000.00 including rebate & cost of installation) VS. fueling at the SF station. So why buy the PHIL -- especially since I would have to have the PHIL refurbished every 4.3 years at an additional $2,000.00 cost? The FM-4 (at $6,000 used) would last longer than the PHIL but it would still take 10.8 years to break even and have to be rebuilt every 6.5 years (with a 4,000 hr head) at an additional $1,000.00 expense. Is my math correct? What am I missing? I like the idea of refueling at home but the cost benefit ratio does not seem to work. Is leasing a PHIL to my advantage or am I better to just refuel at the Clean air station? Thanks for your input! Cal

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              • #22
                Re: Why I passed on Phill

                One item that I see most often overlooked in calculating the cost of home refueling is the time value of money for the initial cost of the refueling device. John Mitton does not include it in his initial post on this thread--he simply says that it is like furniture to him. However, the $6K (used) to $10K (new) that I am seeing quoted for an installed FMQ-2-36 can earn $240 to $400 annually on a 4% CD at the bank (and that does not include compounding). If you are taking a sharp pencil to paper to justify the cost, be certain to include all the costs.

                Same deal for the cost of the vehicle. I seldom see anyone considering the lost interest on the extra money spent on a natural gas vehicle. I bought a Civic GX on the expectation that the differential in the cost between gasoline and natural gas would be at least a certain amount. I consider myself very lucky to be able to buy CNG at our great Utah prices. If CNG prices in Utah were as high as they are in California, I don't think I could justify the expense of a new car solely on the savings in fuel costs, partly because I do not drive enough miles in a year. The more miles driven, the more savings in fuel costs to overcome the loss of the time value of money.

                I wholeheartedly agree with John Mitton that the Phill does not make financial sense, even with the federal tax credit. If I lived as far away from a CNG station as he does and put as many miles on my NGV as he does, I might justify the cost of an FMQ-2-36, especially when I add in the convenience of always having a full tank in the morning.

                If anyone is interested, PM me and I can send you my spreadsheet that includes the time value of money in the cost comparisons for the GX and other (gasoline) vehicles.
                _____________________________________
                '12 Blue Mist Metallic Civic Natural Gas; '03 Galapagos Green Civic GX; '07 Alabaster White Civic GX

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                • #23
                  Re: Why I passed on Phill

                  So the fmq2-36 is best for home refueling? I commute (unfortunately) 105 miles per day.

                  The car will be able to sit for 10 hours before the next long tedious day of driving.

                  I cannot find a used fmq2-36 to purchase, any ideas?

                  Currently the PHILL has a 8 week delivery period, and I am getting tired of waiting, plus I had two quotes for installation of a PHILL in So Cal, one of $1900 the other $3400

                  And this is a short (25 ft) straight shot install, both utilities, easily accessible.

                  Thank you

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                  • #24
                    Re: Why I passed on Phill

                    whichever unit you go with I recommend to install a timer-switch, until Fuelmaker adds the feature to set the time to be on and off.
                    I drive 95 miles per day when I return home with about 2bars left, I set the timer to 7 - 8 hour when turning on the Phill. in the morning I got enough for the round-trip to work and some small side trips if needed. 2-3 bars is also just enough to make it to the next public filling station.
                    If you fill in the low pressure you get more gge thru in the long run and do not put a large burden on the pump.
                    I estimated about 300-400 gge more within the 6000h of operation,if I keep my tank in the lower halve vs. filling it always full.

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                    • #25
                      Re: Why I passed on Phill

                      John
                      Can I get the name and number of the guy that rebuilt your compressor or do I have to go thru FM?
                      THanks

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                      • #26
                        Re: Why I passed on Phill

                        huff,
                        You should contact your local FM dealer as they stock the compressor heads.
                        http://www.fuelmaker.com/Dealers/usdealers.htm

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Why I passed on Phill

                          Re: Why I passed on Phill

                          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          whichever unit you go with I recommend to install a timer-switch, until Fuelmaker adds the feature to set the time to be on and off.
                          I drive 95 miles per day when I return home with about 2bars left, I set the timer to 7 - 8 hour when turning on the Phill. in the morning I got enough for the round-trip to work and some small side trips if needed. 2-3 bars is also just enough to make it to the next public filling station.
                          If you fill in the low pressure you get more gge thru in the long run and do not put a large burden on the pump.
                          I estimated about 300-400 gge more within the 6000h of operation,if I keep my tank in the lower halve vs. filling it always full
                          .

                          So what your saying is using your 3600 compressor at say 3000 psi will make it last up to 8% longer (more gge)?
                          If this is the case then is there a way to have it automatically shut down when it reaches 3000 psi. Maybe using a pressure activated contactor switch set at 3000 psi on the load side of the compressure that opens the circuit?
                          I think this would be far better than a timer.
                          Last edited by w8n4impala; 10-15-2008, 09:25 AM.

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                          • #28
                            Re: Why I passed on Phill

                            Over a ten year period, the average driver will consume about 4000 gallons...

                            How does that justify paying 8 grand on a fueling station! :

                            I suspect most people will not pay for technologies, unless there is a five year payback..This would require saving over $5.oo per gallon, which is highly unlikely..(
                            Last edited by Lakewood90712; 03-04-2012, 04:43 PM.

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                            • #29
                              Re: Why I passed on Phill

                              Our family puts on over 30,000 miles / year between mom, dad, and high schoolers running around 3 NGVs. We love our FMQ.

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                              • #30
                                Re: Why I passed on Phill

                                Well then, in your particular case it makes sense to use CNG, especially since the price of it is so much lower than else..

                                The major problem with buying it here (Center Point Energy) is they increase the price whether NG prices goes up or not...

                                Center Point Energy, does not care one bit if CNG becomes popular..
                                Last edited by Lakewood90712; 03-04-2012, 04:45 PM.

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