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  • Hydrogen ICE Car

    What modifications need to be done to use hydrogen in a CNG ready vehicle?

  • #2
    Re: Hydrogen ICE Car

    A New tank for starters rated at 5000 PSI. Big $$$$$ right now since they are just starting to make them, New fuel maping aka electronic work all new fuel system for the higher pressure.

    100% Hydrogen sucks for ICE. H has lower BTU's vs cng = Lower BTU= Lower MPG Blended H and cng also gives lower MPG by a little, but cleaner air. Hydrogen is good for a electric car with a fuel cell, but it's not all that for ICE.

    Hydrogen will give the electric car all the range it needs and the oil company's will have there new Hydrogen stations to fill up fuel cell cars.

    H is very expensive to make and it's about $9 a gallon right now. Don't be fooled by the hydrogen hype. It's a bunch of BS. CNG is the way to go for ICE cars, and a CNG plug in Hybrid is really the way to go. search cng prius

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    • #3
      Re: Hydrogen ICE Car

      Camryman,
      Do not be small minded. Hydrogren is the future best fuel. Maybe for today is to expensive. But is one huge different between hydrogen and gasoline, CNG, LPG, LNG.
      Hydrogen price depend only on technology. Now is $9. 10 years ago PC hard drive was 200 MB. Now memory sticks are 30 GB.
      Don’t expect OPEC to get cheaper Petrol. Also natural gas maybe not that fast like gasoline but will become more expensive.

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      • #4
        Re: Hydrogen ICE Car

        CNG is loaded with Hydrogen and is way more efficient fuel with infrastructure in place today to make it work. The Clarity is a really nice car, but at $9 a gallon vs CNG priced below $2. and utah at .64 cents.

        With a 5000 psi tank on a cng car you could make a CNG car run dual fuel.
        H or CNG. Why don't the auto manufacturers do this. The energy BTU's are really low in H vs NG. and the MPG would suck on H vs CNG and the electricity to produce H is too costly vs the performance on ICE engines.

        It's very costly to make hydrogen and you need lots of electricity to make it vs natural gas. You can even make hydrogen out of natural gas vs H20.

        The auto industry and government do a great smoke and mirrors game every few years. They try something out, say it doesn't work and then they shift focus onto a new idea.

        Hydrogen Fuel cells do work great and Hydrogen is the buzz word today, but how many billions of dollars in infrastructure would be need for hydrogen to work today.

        The auto industry killed the EV cars, and with the exception of honda they have almost killed all the CNG cars too. They will kill off Hydrogen as well in a few years saying it's too costly... It's funny how they are really pushing the E 85 ethanol right now saying it's so great. Whats next soybean oil mixed in our fuel.

        The new buzz word your going to hear in the next year is Clean burning Diesel. AKA low sulfur diesel. And the auto makers will push these cars with higher MPG and state they have lower emissions. Honda included... With the soon to be released 09 Accord.

        Hydrogen is better for the environment as long as the electricity to make it didn't come from a coal or diesel power plant.

        But right now CNG is the cleaner better choice.

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        • #5
          Re: Hydrogen ICE Car

          I just want a electric Nissan Denki Cube coming in 2010. No numbers yet though as far as mileage. Keep the Cng for longer trips.

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          • #6
            Re: Hydrogen ICE Car

            Also realize that the cheapest method of making Hydrogen is in an SMR (Steam Methane Reformer). It takes methane, (or any hydrocarbon gas), heats it up, mixes it with steam, runs it through a catalyst, which reforms it to H2 and CO. The CO is then further reformed with water into H2 and CO2. The H2 is then extracted form the product stream, and either liquified or compressed for storage/shipment/pipeline. This is already mature techology, and ha reached it's peak in efficiency. (Oil companies have been using/developing SMR's for decades, and use the hydrogen heavily in the refining process). There is no significant room for improvement here. Even if the waste heat of the process is recovered, nd taken into account, you still only get about 75% of the BTU's worth of hydrogen per BTU of methane put in. It really does make more sense to just use the methane outright.

            Gasoline - From Oil, limited supplies, heavy cost for refining in both money AND efficiency.
            Hydrogen - Made from either Electrolysis (very expensive, uses a LOT of electricity for very little H2 output) or Reformation (not as expensive)
            Electricity - Very efficient, in the vehicle, and can be sourced from an endless supply. Definately the cheapest fuel. Can be sourced from many places (solar, hydro, nuclear, oil, natural gas, coal, wind, etc.). High up front equipment cost on batteries. Limited battery lifetime.
            CNG - Used in vehicle virtually untouched from how it comes out of the ground. More BTU efficient (well-to-wheels) than all others, as most the others are sourced FROM the natural gas to begin with. Infrasturcture virtually in place, as it is already piped to the entire country. All that is required is more, relatively inexpensive fueling stations.

            Basically I look at it like this. No matter how much 'future tech' you have, every time you change the energy from one form to another, there will be significant losses. Gasoline, Hydrogen and Electric all have many stages of conversion.

            Hydrogen (Electrolysis):
            - Chemical (NG, Coal, etc.) -> Kinetic (turbine) -> Electric -> Chemical (H2) -> Electric (Fuel Cell) -> Kinetic (electric motor)
            Hydrogen (Reformation):
            - Chemical (NG) -> Chemical (H2) -> Electric (Fuel Cell) -> Kinetic (electric motor)

            Gasoline:
            - Chemical (Oil) -> Chemical (Gasoline) -> Kinetic (ICE)

            Electric:
            - Chemical (NG, Coal, etc.) -> Kinetic (Turbine) -> Electric (Generator) -> Chemical (Batteries) -> Electric -> Kinetic (Electric Motor)

            CNG:
            - Chemical (NG) -> Kinetic (ICE)

            Which of these makes the most common sense? Obviously, some of these conversions is more BTU efficient than others, but most of the efficiencies of the electric motors on the H2 and electric cars could easily be used on a CNG Hybrid. See my other thread about the CNG Turbine EV1 GM prototyped years ago.
            1997 Factory Crown Victoria w/ extended tanks ~~ Clunkerized!
            2000 Bi-Fuel Expedition --> ~~ Sold ~~ <--

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            • #7
              Re: Hydrogen ICE Car

              I just can't go with Hydrogen ICE at this time due to cost of Hydrogen and poor mileage with ICE engines. Honda Clarity yes, because of a more efficient use of the Hydrogen powering a fuel cell/electric motor combination. It should be the fuel of the future because it is renewable. You can make it all day long with solar and wind, or with nuclear reactors providing the electrical current required. The governor was promoting a hydrogen highway, but it seems slow in coming. Progress comes at a cost, but better spent now than bent over the oil barrel later.

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              • #8
                Re: Hydrogen ICE Car

                Iceland is leading.
                http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto...96.A10462.html

                Even they have a 25 year phase in for full usage.
                http://tyler.blogware.com/blog/_arch...4/3483984.html

                For the next 15 yrs CNG is the best transition to fuel-cell H2.

                Agreed, that currently, unless we find a way to cheap water electrolysis, it makes no sense to use Natural Gas to create H2.
                CH

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                • #9
                  Re: Hydrogen ICE Car

                  Both Ford and BMW have some very limited production ICE hydrogen vehicles available now. Both are very expensive , have very large displacement supercharged engines (v-10 Ford shuttlebus chassis) (v-12 BMW car).
                  Do a search on greencarcongress.com .

                  If Hydrogen was available , produced without massive co2 production and massive cost in the process , it could be used for stationary power NOW , in steam turbine power plants , fuel cells , etc.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Hydrogen ICE Car

                    Originally posted by Lakewood90712 View Post
                    If Hydrogen was available , produced without massive co2 production and massive cost in the process , it could be used for stationary power NOW , in steam turbine power plants , fuel cells , etc.
                    There is no 'source' of hydrogen to be available. Though, as for a power plant using hydrogen as an intermediate step, check out the Carson hydrogen Power Project. It is in the late planning stages in Carson, CA. They are basically using a gasification process on petroleum coke and recycled water (both waste from the local refineries) to break the coke into H2 and CO2. The H2 is then burnt in gas tubines, generating power, and used to supplement the already in place local H2 pipeline. The CO2 is compressed and piped to the local oil wells for enhanced oil recovery. Ultimately, it will be a 500MW zero emmision power plant, all while removing a very dirty waste stream.
                    1997 Factory Crown Victoria w/ extended tanks ~~ Clunkerized!
                    2000 Bi-Fuel Expedition --> ~~ Sold ~~ <--

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                    • #11
                      Re: Hydrogen ICE Car

                      Wouldn't reforming NG be more efficient in a fuel cell than running it in an ICE? ICE is 35% efficient, and a fuel cell is 75% efficient?

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                      • #12
                        Re: Hydrogen ICE Car

                        Originally posted by RaulLasVegas View Post
                        Wouldn't reforming NG be more efficient in a fuel cell than running it in an ICE? ICE is 35% efficient, and a fuel cell is 75% efficient?
                        Even a massive stationary Reformer is only a 75% max efficiency, and that is after taking credit for the electricity made from the waste heat. A small scale reformer for a car would be nowhere NEAR that efficient, and would not be able to effectively use the waste heat. Reforming takes place upwards of 1200F, which is not easy to achieve efficiently in a mobile application. My totally uneducated guess owuld put a mobile SMR's efficiency at about 50%. Meaning it would take 2BTU's worth of CNG to make 1 BTU's worth of Hydrogen. Then put that H2 into a fuel cell at 75% efficiency (that's a pretty high estimate there), and you are still looking at a total efficiency of 37.5%, with a LOT of added equipment and weight. Not to mention the cost of the distilled water you would have to fill your tank with for the reforming process. I'll take the CNG ICE anyday.
                        1997 Factory Crown Victoria w/ extended tanks ~~ Clunkerized!
                        2000 Bi-Fuel Expedition --> ~~ Sold ~~ <--

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                        • #13
                          Re: Hydrogen ICE Car

                          I second the CNG Ice!!!!!!

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